Who I met this morning ?

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Who I met this morning ?

Hans N Beck-2
Hi,

the guy I met this morning (GMT+2) in the Wisconsin Croquet space ? I  
was "hnbeck", the "fish" :-) I was kicked out because of some  
problems in Croquet and after restart the "cat" wasn't there anymore :-(


Regards

Hans

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Re: Who I met this morning ?

Søren Renner
I have never found any other users or "spaces". Do tell! How is this accomplished? My Croquet never finds any updates either.

On 4/15/07, Hans N Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

the guy I met this morning (GMT+2) in the Wisconsin Croquet space ? I
was "hnbeck", the "fish" :-) I was kicked out because of some
problems in Croquet and after restart the "cat" wasn't there anymore :-(


Regards

Hans


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Re: Who I met this morning ?

Hans N Beck-2
Hi, 

Am 15.04.2007 um 18:07 schrieb Søren Renner:

I have never found any other users or "spaces". Do tell! How is this accomplished? My Croquet never finds any updates either.

Yes,  since one or two week I try it from time to time, and it was the first coincidence :-) If there is one, you see its avartar, you have nothing to do. Communication was done by "Local Textchat" from the main menu. I don't know if Avatars could "talk" "directly" to each other (by bubbles showing or something else). 

BTW, for me there is often a great delay of pressing a button to the action, so moving exactly is sometimes very hard.

Regards

Hans



On 4/15/07, Hans N Beck <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi,

the guy I met this morning (GMT+2) in the Wisconsin Croquet space ? I
was "hnbeck", the "fish" :-) I was kicked out because of some
problems in Croquet and after restart the "cat" wasn't there anymore :-(


Regards

Hans



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Re: Who I met this morning ?

Les Howell
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 18:41 +0200, Hans N Beck wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Am 15.04.2007 um 18:07 schrieb Søren Renner:
>
> > I have never found any other users or "spaces". Do tell! How is this
> > accomplished? My Croquet never finds any updates either.
>
>
> Yes,  since one or two week I try it from time to time, and it was the
> first coincidence :-) If there is one, you see its avartar, you have
> nothing to do. Communication was done by "Local Textchat" from the
> main menu. I don't know if Avatars could "talk" "directly" to each
> other (by bubbles showing or something else).
>
>
> BTW, for me there is often a great delay of pressing a button to the
> action, so moving exactly is sometimes very hard.
>
>
SNIP!
Are  you using Linux or Windows?  How did you enable access across the
network?  I have had some issues, not only the speed, but also even
establishing a connection.

Regards,
Les H


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Re: Who I met this morning ?

Hans N Beck-2
Hi,


>>
>>
> SNIP!
> Are  you using Linux or Windows?  How did you enable access across the
> network?  I have had some issues, not only the speed, but also even
> establishing a connection.

Mac Book. I'm using the distribution image 1.0.18.9. I do nothing  
special, as described at www.croquetcollaborative.org, I click on the  
blue button, confirm connection, then it tooks a long time (1-2  
minutes or more), than I am in Croquet space. Thats all. But I must  
say connection establishes not always.

Regards

Hans

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Re: Who I met this morning ?

Paul Sheldon-2
In reply to this post by Hans N Beck-2
Hans N Beck:

"BTW, for me there is often a great delay of pressing a button to the
action, so
moving exactly is sometimes very hard."

Though I am not sure my language is correct or clear,
I believe this might be said feedback is slow on shared events
or is related with some other words I can't find
to a concept called latency found in music over internet
(but words somewhat "abused" by musicians pretending to be engineers
and so with perhaps muddled consensus on what latency means).

It is somewhat awkward to talk when none of us is a definitive
source and we are talking across international boundaries,
but sometimes merely expressing the awkwardness
lubricates fertile conversations!

A beautiful moment in a movie, "Ordinary People" had a young lady
apologize for giggling and explain the feeling underneath it
was embarrassment. This was a great "opening" of the heart.

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Collaborative initial startup [was:] Who I met this morning ?

Howard Stearns
In reply to this post by Hans N Beck-2
It does take too darn long to start up. Some thoughts at http://
www.wetmachine.com/item/769

On Apr 15, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Hans N Beck wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>>>
>>>
>> SNIP!
>> Are  you using Linux or Windows?  How did you enable access across  
>> the
>> network?  I have had some issues, not only the speed, but also even
>> establishing a connection.
>
> Mac Book. I'm using the distribution image 1.0.18.9. I do nothing  
> special, as described at www.croquetcollaborative.org, I click on  
> the blue button, confirm connection, then it tooks a long time (1-2  
> minutes or more), than I am in Croquet space. Thats all. But I must  
> say connection establishes not always.
>
> Regards
>
> Hans
>

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Re: Collaborative initial startup [was:] Who I met this morning ?

Brad Fuller-3
Howard Stearns wrote:

> It does take too darn long to start up. Some thoughts at
> http://www.wetmachine.com/item/769
> Another thing that aggravates this is that we dump every visitor into
> the same spot. We do this deliberately for now in order to increase
> the chance that you'll see someone, and to increase the chance that
> user-created content will be somewhere nearby. But that creates a lot
> of user-content in the island that really shouldn't be there “in
> practice”, and it creates transient garbage there that ought to go
> away. I'd like to address this by having a private (non-replicated)
> home space in which you maintain your own portals to wherever you
> want. You would startup quickly in your home space. You would then
> deliberately open one of your own portals to the place of your choosing.
That would seem to be acceptable if a "marauders map" is available to
see who's on line and where they are.


>
> On Apr 15, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Hans N Beck wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> SNIP!
>>> Are you using Linux or Windows? How did you enable access across the
>>> network? I have had some issues, not only the speed, but also even
>>> establishing a connection.
>>
>> Mac Book. I'm using the distribution image 1.0.18.9. I do nothing
>> special, as described at www.croquetcollaborative.org, I click on the
>> blue button, confirm connection, then it tooks a long time (1-2
>> minutes or more), than I am in Croquet space. Thats all. But I must
>> say connection establishes not always.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Hans
>>
>
>


--
brad fuller
www.bradfuller.com
+1 (408) 799-6124

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Re: Who I met this morning ?

Les Howell
In reply to this post by Hans N Beck-2
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 20:36 +0200, Hans N Beck wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> >>
> >>
> > SNIP!
> > Are  you using Linux or Windows?  How did you enable access across the
> > network?  I have had some issues, not only the speed, but also even
> > establishing a connection.
>
> Mac Book. I'm using the distribution image 1.0.18.9. I do nothing  
> special, as described at www.croquetcollaborative.org, I click on the  
> blue button, confirm connection, then it tooks a long time (1-2  
> minutes or more), than I am in Croquet space. Thats all. But I must  
> say connection establishes not always.
>
> Regards
>
> Hans
>
OK, thanks.  I was hoping for a magic bullet, but no such luck.

Regards,
Les H

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Re: Collaborative initial startup [was:] Who I met this morning ?

Les Howell
In reply to this post by Howard Stearns
On Sun, 2007-04-15 at 14:57 -0500, Howard Stearns wrote:
> It does take too darn long to start up. Some thoughts at http://
> www.wetmachine.com/item/769
>
Thanks, Howard,
I'll bookmark that site and read it tonight.

Regards,
Les H

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latency [was:] Who I met this morning ?

Howard Stearns
In reply to this post by Paul Sheldon-2
There are a few problems here:

1) Getting your instructions to the router and back takes time. This  
the latency that Paul mentions. Based on the time it takes to get  
through the wires and electronics of all the hops, it ought to be  
less than half a second, and generally less. But there tends to be  
"stuff" in the way:

     a) One serious problem I've noticed is that service providers  
tend to limit bandwidth (the amount of bits transmitted per unit  
time).  They throttle the bits -- still delivering them, but not  
delivering more than the allotted amount per unit time. If you're  
transmit, say, 10 big messages in rapid succession (i.e., back to  
back), then the first message will take longer for the last packet to  
be delivered, the next message longer still, and the last message  
hopelessly late.  Quite often, you'll feel like stuff isn't getting  
through at all, so you end up sending even more messages (clicking  
and waiving your mouse around and such).

We can address this in several ways. Croquet messages are two long  
(they have too many bits that we don't need) and are too frequent  
(they are sent more often than are needed). That's tuning. I know  
that David and Andreas have made great improvements here, but that  
code is still under development and not available yet.  In addition,  
the Collaborative code already does some ham-fisted improvements that  
are in the KAT demo, but not any of the others. See http://
www.wetmachine.com/itf/item/685

     b) Longer term, we might consider transmission protocols other  
than TCP. I'm not rushing to that. We'll see.

2) In between sending to the router and getting the response back  
from the router, there is, of course, the router and its box. The  
Collaborative box is running the routers for 13 worlds, several VNC/
RFB servers, a Web server, and more. All through the same Network  
Interface Card, and using one processor.  I don't know if we're  
getting delays from this or not.  Anyone know how to tell?

3) Even when we get #1 and 2 as good as we can, I'm not certain that  
it will be entirely satisfying to have to wait for a round trip from  
your box to the router and back before you see any response in your  
world. The previous (U.Wisconsin-only) version of Croquet, called  
Dormouse, sacrificed some generality in order to let users see the  
result of their own actions immediately, as a sort of speculative  
evaluation. See http://www.wetmachine.com/itf/item/429   (There's a  
link in there to powerpoint with more info.) I think we might want to  
do something like this.

On Apr 15, 2007, at 3:02 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hans N Beck:
>
> "BTW, for me there is often a great delay of pressing a button to the
> action, so
> moving exactly is sometimes very hard."
>
> Though I am not sure my language is correct or clear,
> I believe this might be said feedback is slow on shared events
> or is related with some other words I can't find
> to a concept called latency found in music over internet
> (but words somewhat "abused" by musicians pretending to be engineers
> and so with perhaps muddled consensus on what latency means).
>
> It is somewhat awkward to talk when none of us is a definitive
> source and we are talking across international boundaries,
> but sometimes merely expressing the awkwardness
> lubricates fertile conversations!
>
> A beautiful moment in a movie, "Ordinary People" had a young lady
> apologize for giggling and explain the feeling underneath it
> was embarrassment. This was a great "opening" of the heart.
>

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Re: latency [was:] Who I met this morning ?

Alan Grimes-2
> 2) In between sending to the router and getting the response back from
> the router, there is, of course, the router and its box. The
> Collaborative box is running the routers for 13 worlds, several VNC/RFB
> servers, a Web server, and more. All through the same Network Interface
> Card, and using one processor.  I don't know if we're getting delays
> from this or not.  Anyone know how to tell?

eek!

At least upgrade to a SMP/multicore processor. While the Squeak VM can't
use the other chip directly, it does help free up cycles and improve
responsiveness... There are also TCP offload engines available but these
may be beyond the available budget...

I am currently using a 2003 vintage dual athlon, it works great. =)

--
Opera: Sing it loud! :o(  )>-<
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Re: latency [was:] Who I met this morning ?

Florent THIERY-2
In reply to this post by Howard Stearns
>      b) Longer term, we might consider transmission protocols other
> than TCP. I'm not rushing to that. We'll see.

How does the replication messages passing work exactly? I mean: a
client commits an updates, passes the message to all the participants?
Which means one TCP connexion per user? Or are the messages just sent
to one/two clients, then replicated by them among the other ones? I'd
be glad to know more about the network topology used.

There's something that makes me wonder: if every state change /
computation is replicated among all participants, does'nt it mean that
mass/group delivery protocols are a way to go ? (multicast IP /
overlay multicast / anycast / group, publish-subscribe services).

Thank you

Florent
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Re: latency [was:] Who I met this morning ?

Howard Stearns
The router in the current implementation keeps one connection per  
participant and sends the message to each one in turn.  See the  
various Dispatcher, Router, and RouterClient classes.

Yes this could be done differently. You could imagine an an overlay  
message distribution network among all participating machines,  
regardless of which island(s) they have joined.

But I think it is a mistake to think of these messages as occurring  
on every state change. The whole point of the (Simplified) Tea Time  
model is that all the behavior is replicated among all participants.  
We only need to replicate messages that reflect new external inputs  
to the simulation. Given the same inputs at the same (tea) time, each  
replicated computation produces the same results.  See
http://opencroquet.org/index.php/The_Core_Model
http://opencroquet.org/index.php/Programming_Croquet

On Apr 16, 2007, at 7:17 AM, Florent THIERY wrote:

>>      b) Longer term, we might consider transmission protocols other
>> than TCP. I'm not rushing to that. We'll see.
>
> How does the replication messages passing work exactly? I mean: a
> client commits an updates, passes the message to all the participants?
> Which means one TCP connexion per user? Or are the messages just sent
> to one/two clients, then replicated by them among the other ones? I'd
> be glad to know more about the network topology used.
>
> There's something that makes me wonder: if every state change /
> computation is replicated among all participants, does'nt it mean that
> mass/group delivery protocols are a way to go ? (multicast IP /
> overlay multicast / anycast / group, publish-subscribe services).
>
> Thank you
>
> Florent

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getting help

Chris Bacigalupo
In reply to this post by Florent THIERY-2
I'd REALLY like to get croquet working but I get errors when I drag
DEMO(master) onto the desktop. I've posted to the bug tracker but
haven't heard anything. Has anyone else had issues like this?



Screenshot.png (175K) Download Attachment
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Re: getting help

Søren Renner
If you are running under Linux, start Croquet from a terminal window and look at the messages. It may not be finding your OpenGL or OpenAL (3d sound) libraries. (In my case, that is what happened.)

On 4/16/07, Chris Bacigalupo <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd REALLY like to get croquet working but I get errors when I drag
DEMO(master) onto the desktop. I've posted to the bug tracker but
haven't heard anything. Has anyone else had issues like this?




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Re: getting help

Joshua Gargus-2
In reply to this post by Chris Bacigalupo
It looks like the FFI plugin is not being found.  Are you starting up  
using the Croquet.sh script?

Josh


On Apr 16, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Chris Bacigalupo wrote:

> I'd REALLY like to get croquet working but I get errors when I drag
> DEMO(master) onto the desktop. I've posted to the bug tracker but
> haven't heard anything. Has anyone else had issues like this?
>
>
> <Screenshot.png>

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Re: getting help

Chris Bacigalupo
Thanks for the prompt responses!

 yes, I'm using the Croquet.sh script

I'm starting from /home/baci2/installs/CroquetSDK-1.0.18/ dir

I do have libGL.so.1 in /usr/lib

here's terminal window output on execution of Croquet.sh

[root@BACI-W CroquetSDK-1.0.18]# ./Croquet.sh
SocketPlugin: ignoring unknown option 'SO_REUSEPORT'
ioLoadModule(./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims):
  ./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims: cannot restore segment prot
after reloc: Permission denied
ioLoadModule(./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims):
  ./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims: cannot restore segment prot
after reloc: Permission denied

On Mon, 2007-04-16 at 11:50 -0700, Joshua Gargus wrote:

> It looks like the FFI plugin is not being found.  Are you starting up  
> using the Croquet.sh script?
>
> Josh
>
>
> On Apr 16, 2007, at 10:48 AM, Chris Bacigalupo wrote:
>
> > I'd REALLY like to get croquet working but I get errors when I drag
> > DEMO(master) onto the desktop. I've posted to the bug tracker but
> > haven't heard anything. Has anyone else had issues like this?
> >
> >
> > <Screenshot.png>
>

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Re: getting help

Bert Freudenberg
On Apr 16, 2007, at 22:02 , Chris Bacigalupo wrote:

> [root@BACI-W CroquetSDK-1.0.18]# ./Croquet.sh
> SocketPlugin: ignoring unknown option 'SO_REUSEPORT'
> ioLoadModule(./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims):
>   ./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims: cannot restore segment prot
> after reloc: Permission denied

This appears to be a common problem with SELinux. A google search for  
"cannot restore segment prot after reloc" gets more than 10K hits,  
including workarounds.

- Bert -


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Re: getting help

Chris Bacigalupo
thanks bert, After shutting down SELinux I get past the first bug and on
to a second bug ... hehe...

Error: A primative has failed

looks like I'm still not finding the openGL libs.

Is there a preferred place from which a user should execute Croquet.sh?

On Mon, 2007-04-16 at 23:13 +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> On Apr 16, 2007, at 22:02 , Chris Bacigalupo wrote:
>
> > [root@BACI-W CroquetSDK-1.0.18]# ./Croquet.sh
> > SocketPlugin: ignoring unknown option 'SO_REUSEPORT'
> > ioLoadModule(./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims):
> >   ./bin/i686-pc-linux-gnu/SqueakFFIPrims: cannot restore segment prot
> > after reloc: Permission denied
>
> This appears to be a common problem with SELinux. A google search for  
> "cannot restore segment prot after reloc" gets more than 10K hits,  
> including workarounds.
>
> - Bert -
>
>

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