changing default theme to DarkTheme

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephane Ducasse-3
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephane Ducasse-3
In reply to this post by hernanmd
A final point I cannot work with the dark theme. But the interest of Pharo is more important that own little ego. 
I will try and put a preference if I fail. Why because we need to have a different look for the version and I proposed this change!!!!!!

Stef

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

philippeback
In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2
Make it default so that it will bother people enough to fix the glitches.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>> I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
>> This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
>
>
> No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6.

Why would it be too late ?

Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for years, it just works (modulo some minor problems).

It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.

Sven




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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
On 15/04/17 14:43, [hidden email] wrote:
> Make it default so that it will bother people enough to fix the glitches.

That is fine to do for half a year starting with Pharo 7.
I'm all in favor of making changes in development that help
us improve. It is definitely not a good idea to make sure that
no external project looks good at the release of Pharo 6,
and make life worse for 80% of developers. Released version needs
to be a light theme. In development we can switch for a while

Stephan


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
In reply to this post by philippeback
Wow guys seriously it's a setting , not the end of the world . Completely agree with Cyril , I find white theme terrible and I never imagined making such a big fuss for a setting.

You guys need to chill out.

Lol at Phil , funny and true.
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 at 15:45, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Make it default so that it will bother people enough to fix the glitches.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>> I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
>> This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
>
>
> No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6.

Why would it be too late ?

Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for years, it just works (modulo some minor problems).

It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.

Sven




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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

webwarrior
In reply to this post by EstebanLM
All major desktop OSes have light theme by default. Most web sites have white or light background and dark text. Almost all PDF documents have white background.

Switching between dark and light themed applications puts strain on the eyes. So it's not just aesthetic preference. Dark theme will be uncomfortable to use for most users. "Looking cool" or "being different" is not an excuse.

Image and video editing programs are a different story, because edited content usually takes most of the screen space.
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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

HilaireFernandes
In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Ah, the tips are readable at least. Just kidding ;)
Good job.

Hilaire

Le 14/04/2017 à 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano a écrit :
> I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
> This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

NorbertHartl
In reply to this post by webwarrior

> Am 15.04.2017 um 15:35 schrieb webwarrior <[hidden email]>:
>
> All major desktop OSes have light theme by default. Most web sites have white
> or light background and dark text. Almost all PDF documents have white
> background.
>
> Switching between dark and light themed applications puts strain on the
> eyes. So it's not just aesthetic preference. Dark theme will be
> uncomfortable to use for most users. "Looking cool" or "being different" is
> not an excuse.
>
But that is not true. Well, I would hope you are right because I don't like the dark theme. But to be fair I need to say that what you say is only right for things be read, newspapers and web sites. The problem for programming is that we use syntax highlighting, hence using a lot of colors. And comparing the capability of building contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the last researches I've read.
My problem is more the pharo dark theme. I tried to use it the last days. But the colors chosen do not work for me. Somehow they are misaligned but as I'm not an expert on that topic, I cannot give any valuable input.

Norbert
 

> Image and video editing programs are a different story, because edited
> content usually takes most of the screen space.
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/changing-default-theme-to-DarkTheme-tp4942038p4942224.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

HilaireFernandes
In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from
important changes occurring in the system release after release.
Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)

From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up
and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am
only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine
with this pace of change.

But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the
best free Smalltalk horse around.

Hilaire

Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
>

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by NorbertHartl
On 15/04/17 16:02, Norbert Hartl wrote:
> And comparing the capability of building
> contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the
> last researches I've read.

Which ones? https://webstandards.hhs.gov/guidelines/106 seems pretty
clear.

Stephan



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

NorbertHartl

Am 15.04.2017 um 16:39 schrieb Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]>:

On 15/04/17 16:02, Norbert Hartl wrote:
And comparing the capability of building
contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the
last researches I've read.

Which ones? https://webstandards.hhs.gov/guidelines/106 seems pretty
clear.

Yes, it is clear that 

"When users are expected to rapidly read and understand prose text, use black text on a plain, high-contrast, non-patterned background." 

That is what I said. If you read a lot of text then dark on light works better. This is not the case if the text is colored which it is when syntax highlighting is used. A lot of colors typically used within highlighting build a weaker contrast with white then they do with dark background.
I don't have the papers at hand. I try to find those references again.

Norbert


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

hernanmd
In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

webwarrior
In reply to this post by NorbertHartl
NorbertHartl wrote
> Am 15.04.2017 um 15:35 schrieb webwarrior <[hidden email]>:
>
> All major desktop OSes have light theme by default. Most web sites have white
> or light background and dark text. Almost all PDF documents have white
> background.
>
> Switching between dark and light themed applications puts strain on the
> eyes. So it's not just aesthetic preference. Dark theme will be
> uncomfortable to use for most users. "Looking cool" or "being different" is
> not an excuse.
>
But that is not true. Well, I would hope you are right because I don't like the dark theme. But to be fair I need to say that what you say is only right for things be read, newspapers and web sites. The problem for programming is that we use syntax highlighting, hence using a lot of colors. And comparing the capability of building contrasts with colors, dark colors win, sorry. At least that were the last researches I've read.
My problem is more the pharo dark theme. I tried to use it the last days. But the colors chosen do not work for me. Somehow they are misaligned but as I'm not an expert on that topic, I cannot give any valuable input.

Norbert
I'm not saying that light on dark is bad. I'm saying that switching between light on dark and dark on light is uncomfortable.
Like when you have to look something up on the web, or read docs/notes, or move files in file manager, etc.
You're not working in Pharo all the time, right?
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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephane Ducasse-3
In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
Hilaire 

We are porting Moose in max two days for each version and it is around 150 packages. 
Now if you want to be able to use Athens then one guy as to fix FFI 
if you want to use Spur, 64bits.....
So such kind of rants are totally useless, counterproductive and our community deserves more. 

I worked 4 months to write a project proposal to bring money in the community and new people
and I may lose all my efforts if the project is not accepted and when I see such kind of 
behavior. I'm just thinking that it is UNFAIR!!!!
Stef

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:04 PM, Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote:
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from
important changes occurring in the system release after release.
Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)

From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up
and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am
only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine
with this pace of change.

But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the
best free Smalltalk horse around.

Hilaire

Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
>

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephane Ducasse-3
In reply to this post by hernanmd
There is no voting for such default. Why because this is marketing! 
I do not like the black theme but I find the white one not good either. 
And we need to have a different look. So you will add a preference script to set it back to white and perfect. 

I fully agree with Cyril. 

If one day we set a model it will be the one of avogado and with weight based on contribution. 

Stef

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán




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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

hernanmd
In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
Hey Hilaire,

Not afraid at all, because I know where the changes come from.

Take a look at the SmalltalkHub users/projects and how many contribute back to pharo-dev and you will understand.

Hernán


2017-04-15 11:04 GMT-03:00 Hilaire <[hidden email]>:
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from
important changes occurring in the system release after release.
Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)

From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up
and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am
only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine
with this pace of change.

But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the
best free Smalltalk horse around.

Hilaire

Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
>

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Pavel Krivanek-3
BTW, if you open the welcome help that users will see after opening of Pharo 6, you will realize, that switching of the theme to white one is matter of one click:
 
WelcomeHelp openForRelease 

Cheers,
-- Pavel


2017-04-15 18:18 GMT+02:00 Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]>:
Hey Hilaire,

Not afraid at all, because I know where the changes come from.

Take a look at the SmalltalkHub users/projects and how many contribute back to pharo-dev and you will understand.

Hernán


2017-04-15 11:04 GMT-03:00 Hilaire <[hidden email]>:
May be Herman is expressing some level of frustrations resulting from
important changes occurring in the system release after release.
Your listing of changes may afraid him even more ;-)

From my point of view, Pharo is changing too fast to follow what's up
and to adapt code. I am still lagging with Pharo3 on Dr.Geo :) But I am
only an amateur programmer, professional programmer may fell just fine
with this pace of change.

But anyway, because of its energy and community, Pharo is definitely the
best free Smalltalk horse around.

Hilaire

Le 15/04/2017 à 14:30, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
> Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?
>

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu




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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

philippeback
In reply to this post by hernanmd
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".

It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.

Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán




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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Clément Bera-4
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? 

If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?

I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability. 

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".

It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.

Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán





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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
In reply to this post by philippeback
Totally agree Phil even on the documentation front we are light years ahead of version 2. I think it will become a problem that Pharo improves to fast, but that's a blessing problem.kudos to the amazing work of Pharo devs .
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 at 21:32, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".

It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.

Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán




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