changing default theme to DarkTheme

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

HilaireFernandes
Life can be very UNFAIR but I don't see how it is related to the
previously expressed opinions about what people fell.

Le 15/04/2017 à 17:07, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
> behavior. I'm just thinking that it is UNFAIR!!!!

--
Dr. Geo
http://drgeo.eu


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephane Ducasse-3
In reply to this post by Clément Bera-4
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!!
phil too. 
No new code!

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? 

If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?

I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability. 

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".

It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.

Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán






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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the most popular dark theme out there.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!!
phil too. 
No new code!

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? 

If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?

I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability. 

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".

It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.

Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán






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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
Personally I'm not adverse to this switch even though I've not used
the dark theme much,
but as devils advocate a few questions arise.

  a. How will you make Pharo 7/8/9/etc visually distinct?
      a1. *cough* Switch back to white theme?
      a2. How much visual distinction is required?
      a3. Would it be easier to continually alter...
                background Pharo logo
                background colour / pattern
                titlebar icons, font, colour

  b. What are the considerations of effect on documentation?
       b1. PBE
       b2. mooc

  c. Will this have adequate testing?
      c1. Its a late change with significant impact to first impressions
      c2. I understand that some people have been using it a lot,
            but they may have narrow environments.  For example,
            enabling the Dark theme, on my laptop with brightness turned down,
            I find it disconcerting that I can't distinguish where
title bars run into each other.

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-need-to-be-distinctive

cheers -ben
P.S. I'm travelling so I can't work on this myself for a few days.

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:23 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> tx pavel!
> We need a look that we can identify pharo 60 as pharo 60 :)
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-04-14 13:48 GMT+02:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>
>>> 2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>> But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI
>>>> widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them
>>>> in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact,
>>>> many people already use it as they preferred theme.
>>>
>>>
>>> Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval
>>> with white label. It is almost unreadable.
>>
>>
>> Let's be constructive :-)
>>
>> https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19935/Versionner-tags-are-unreadable-in-the-dark-theme
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current
>>> white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.
>>
>>
>

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot


On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Cyril Ferlicot D. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time
a default settings is changed?

Because its natural to have personal preferences/opinions and easy 
to bike-shed about those. I'm as guilty as the next guy.

btw, I'm in favour of the board making these sorts of executive decisions rather than voting.
Sure if a vote was 90% against the dark theme it would seem strange to go against it,
but what if it was only 51%.  I don't imagine that result really smoothing community sentiment.
Now what about 55% or 60%? Where you draw the line now becomes an executive decision.

So sometimes its more efficient to just move than have continuous discussions.  Also there may
be a bigger picture to bring in more users/money (aka marketting) which we don't hear 
the details of.  But people do need an opportunity to vent so the board are not blind 
to community sentiment. So just roll with it.

cheers -ben
 

I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it
come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for
feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is
that some people will like the default one and some will not like it.
That's the point.

Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo
has no setting system each time I see those threads.

Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of
Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as
Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for
example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7.

I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

NorbertHartl
I wonder why voting is considered something good. To me voting is rather a last resort strategy. 
Voting is taking power without the need for having an opinion nor any reason. To me the sense of voting is to make most people feel empowered/comfortable. And the outcome is often poor or even contradictory.

my 2 cents,

Norbert


Am 16.04.2017 um 17:49 schrieb Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:



On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Cyril Ferlicot D. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time
a default settings is changed?

Because its natural to have personal preferences/opinions and easy 
to bike-shed about those. I'm as guilty as the next guy.

btw, I'm in favour of the board making these sorts of executive decisions rather than voting.
Sure if a vote was 90% against the dark theme it would seem strange to go against it,
but what if it was only 51%.  I don't imagine that result really smoothing community sentiment.
Now what about 55% or 60%? Where you draw the line now becomes an executive decision.

So sometimes its more efficient to just move than have continuous discussions.  Also there may
be a bigger picture to bring in more users/money (aka marketting) which we don't hear 
the details of.  But people do need an opportunity to vent so the board are not blind 
to community sentiment. So just roll with it.

cheers -ben
 

I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it
come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for
feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is
that some people will like the default one and some will not like it.
That's the point.

Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo
has no setting system each time I see those threads.

Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of
Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as
Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for
example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7.

I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
On 16/04/17 13:26, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
> clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!!
> phil too.
> No new code!

Sorry, but that does not make sense to me. I've only heard complaints
about dependent projects not honoring theme color settings, and I've
never been able to switch themes actually work without leaving artifacts
behind. I agree it makes sense to fix that, and I'm all in favor of
temporarily switching default to black in 7. I strongly oppose switching
themes now.

Stephan



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

hernanmd
In reply to this post by NorbertHartl

Hi Norbert,

2017-04-16 13:28 GMT-03:00 Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]>:
I wonder why voting is considered something good. To me voting is rather a last resort strategy. 
Voting is taking power without the need for having an opinion nor any reason. To me the sense of voting is to make most people feel empowered/comfortable. And the outcome is often poor or even contradictory.


On the contrary, voting is a good measure of the wisdom and education of the community.
Voting is a way to get people who seek absolute power and tyrants out of the road.
Because a man without a vote is a man without protection.
Because voting and prevents the cult of ignorance promoted by the Open-Source lemma of the "benevolent dictatorship".

That post-modern notion of benevolent dictatorship will solve things is terrible.

 
Hernán



my 2 cents,

Norbert


Am 16.04.2017 um 17:49 schrieb Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:



On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 8:01 PM, Cyril Ferlicot D. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time
a default settings is changed?

Because its natural to have personal preferences/opinions and easy 
to bike-shed about those. I'm as guilty as the next guy.

btw, I'm in favour of the board making these sorts of executive decisions rather than voting.
Sure if a vote was 90% against the dark theme it would seem strange to go against it,
but what if it was only 51%.  I don't imagine that result really smoothing community sentiment.
Now what about 55% or 60%? Where you draw the line now becomes an executive decision.

So sometimes its more efficient to just move than have continuous discussions.  Also there may
be a bigger picture to bring in more users/money (aka marketting) which we don't hear 
the details of.  But people do need an opportunity to vent so the board are not blind 
to community sentiment. So just roll with it.

cheers -ben
 

I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it
come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for
feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is
that some people will like the default one and some will not like it.
That's the point.

Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo
has no setting system each time I see those threads.

Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of
Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as
Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for
example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7.

I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephane Ducasse-3
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
did you publish the blue theme as an autonomous package?

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the most popular dark theme out there.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!!
phil too. 
No new code!

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? 

If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?

I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability. 

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".

It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.

Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán







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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

CyrilFerlicot
In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
On 16/04/2017 20:31, Stephan Eggermont wrote:

> Sorry, but that does not make sense to me. I've only heard complaints
> about dependent projects not honoring theme color settings, and I've
> never been able to switch themes actually work without leaving artifacts
> behind. I agree it makes sense to fix that, and I'm all in favor of
> temporarily switching default to black in 7. I strongly oppose switching
> themes now.
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
Hi,

There is still some glitches on theme change but most of them have been
corrected in Pharo 6.

Also, I use the dark theme since almost two years and I don't remember
having problems. Do you have examples?

And last, when a new version of a programming language is out, we do not
expect all applications to be up to date with the language at the time
of the release.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
In reply to this post by Stephane Ducasse-3
Yes it's actually more than that.

It's called Nireas and I think it's the only theme that comes with its own GUI that allows to customize its colors , so it's very flexible. 

It's available at Package Browser
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 21:53, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
did you publish the blue theme as an autonomous package?

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Me too, even my blue theme is nothing more than a customization of dark theme. Plus dark theme is based on darcula dark theme which is by far the most popular dark theme out there.
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 at 14:27, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
clement esteban is using the dark theme since several years!!!!
phil too. 
No new code!

On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 12:35 AM, Clément Bera <[hidden email]> wrote:
Isn't a couple days before release a bit late to change the default theme ? Aren't we in feature freeze mode ? 

If for marketing it makes sense to switch to the dark theme, then let's switch to dark theme. But why not switching for Pharo 7 instead ? Instability is bad for marketing anyway, isn't it ?

I don't mind for myself, I will always switch back with user settings to the light theme it's more about the general perception of Pharo stability. 

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 11:31 AM, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Bah, I made GTSpotter dark theme work with SublimishTheme and got the "yeah, for Pharo7".

It is pissing me off but what can I say, just follow what is released.

Compare Pharo 1 and Pharo 6. Worlds apart. I hope this continues.

Phil

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
I vote for a voting system for these kind of changes. I cannot say it more clearly, and I don't know why is asking for a voting system negative?

We all have problems. In the meantime you will make all the changes you like to do, and I will continue working on my own way, until I find there is more voice for the "small minority".

2017-04-15 9:30 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
Hi Hernan

Why are you always so negative? Do you think that this is easy?

Inria paid Denis to build a remote tool suite for ***research purpose*** and we discovered that a new remote invocation framework was needed and that they were far too many discussions between the model and the view. 
Denis proposed to build a new browser (and it was not in our plans) and we decided that we cannot do it otherwise. 
We could keep this tool for us but we share it with the community. 

Do you want another example?
I asked christopher to build versionner and he discovered that he cannot script well enough the model. And versionner was made 
for everybody. Now with git we will have to revise it. 

Do you want another example?
Iceberg we payed nicolas passerini to analyse the situation and to build a system that other people 
can use it.

Do you want another example?
Esteban got in his face the FFI problem: you see Spur arrives and FFI nabive boost does not so what do we do?
He worked like a mad (and it was not planned because we thought that igor would adpta NB to spur then to 64 bits). 
And the FFI is for everbody. 

Do you want another example?
We spent one year with pavel, guillermo and christophe to make sure that we can make sure that the three yars
effort of the phd of guillermo on bootstrap are not lost. 

Do you want more?
All my books are open-source? Do you know how much time I take to write a book?

I spent 8 months designing a mooc and do you know how much I earned doing it: 3000 Euros ( so I will make the computation to know how much per hour I lost) and the mooc is free. 

May be all these examples have no value for you. But for me they have. 

So you see you can piss on us if it makes you feeling better, and you can rant in your corner. 
But this is not the vision I have about a community because we are sharing all the things that we are doing. 

Stef




On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes. 

no, this is not how it works. 

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic. 
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.
Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)
 
Hernán







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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot
On 16/04/17 20:53, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote:
> And last, when a new version of a programming language is out, we do not
> expect all applications to be up to date with the language at the time
> of the release.

We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week
after the release. Otherwise, why bother.

Stephan



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by CyrilFerlicot
On 16/04/17 20:53, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote:
> Also, I use the dark theme since almost two years and I don't remember
> having problems. Do you have examples?

Within two minutes I found a non-themed visualization in Moose.
The switching works a lot better than last time I looked at dark theme.

Stephan



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

CyrilFerlicot
In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
On 16/04/2017 23:13, Stephan Eggermont wrote:
> We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week
> after the release. Otherwise, why bother.
>
> Stephan
>

As I asked in my previous mail, what is broken?

In Pharo 4 there is broken things. In Pharo 6 I don't see what is
broken. Maybe that if we see that there is indeed things broken that you
can list it will wait P7.

For now I see 0 issue on dark theme on fogbugz.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
On 16/04/17 23:27, Cyril Ferlicot D. wrote:
> On 16/04/2017 23:13, Stephan Eggermont wrote:
>> We do not break things a week before the release. We break them a week
>> after the release. Otherwise, why bother.
>>
>> Stephan
>>
>
> As I asked in my previous mail, what is broken?

There are 214 instances of the text 'Color white' and 210 of
'Color black' in a 60450 image. Moose images have 1.5 to 2 as many

Stephan



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Mark Bestley-2
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> --94eb2c190338e56e92054d34764f
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Wow guys seriously it's a setting , not the end of the world . Completely
> agree with Cyril , I find white theme terrible and I never imagined making
> such a big fuss for a setting.
>

The mooc anmd other documentation show the white theme.

So when new users start they see the documentation is wrong - so
IMMEDIATELY have a problem



> You guys need to chill out.
>

--
Mark


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.

Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least 6 years old.

At some point we will have to automate the whole process with the documentation. Which is why I am implementing a new in image interactive documentation system QA tooltip based I call Prometheas using a online PostgreSQL database that will make it unnecessary to have to download the latest Pharo to get latest documentation. As long as you are online you will have direct access to latest documentation.

It won't replace the online HTML/PDF docs but it will provide a quick and dirty way to fetch and create documentation in image.
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 at 12:46, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> --94eb2c190338e56e92054d34764f
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Wow guys seriously it's a setting , not the end of the world . Completely
> agree with Cyril , I find white theme terrible and I never imagined making
> such a big fuss for a setting.
>

The mooc anmd other documentation show the white theme.

So when new users start they see the documentation is wrong - so
IMMEDIATELY have a problem



> You guys need to chill out.
>

--
Mark


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Mark Bestley-2
Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white
> theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have
> an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
> white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>

No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
looking for a match.

A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
the mooc or documentation.

They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)

> Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
> ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least
> 6 years old.
>

--
Mark


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephane Ducasse-3
For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50. 

S. 

On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the white
> theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will have
> an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
> white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>

No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
looking for a match.

A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
the mooc or documentation.

They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)

> Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
> ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at least
> 6 years old.
>

--
Mark



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Ben Coman
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <news{@bestley.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>

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