changing default theme to DarkTheme

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
Resistance is futile

You know what amazes me about this discussion ?

The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. 

And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
and I agree your method is easier on the eyes , though I would want it a bit brighter because I have many bright windows (unfortunately ) outside pharo window and they will steal my focus

The lesson of this story.... Try Nireas or make your own custom theme. No theme will make you as happy as making your own theme and frankly its so easy.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 11:10 AM Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
Resistance is futile

You know what amazes me about this discussion ?

The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. 

And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

hernanmd
In reply to this post by kilon.alios


2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
Resistance is futile

You know what amazes me about this discussion ?

The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. 

And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)


You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.

Cheers,

Hernán

 
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics.  

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
Resistance is futile

You know what amazes me about this discussion ?

The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. 

And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)


You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.

Cheers,

Hernán

 
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

hernanmd
Then don't talk about democracy, because you weren't born at Ottoman Empire nor Nazi occupation, and many of us actually were born and lived under military dictatorship.
So next time think twice before putting a smile besides "no democracy".



2017-04-21 7:40 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics.  

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
Resistance is futile

You know what amazes me about this discussion ?

The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. 

And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)


You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.

Cheers,

Hernán

 
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

EstebanLM
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
in fact, Greece had a pretty hard dictatorship from '67 to '74

On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:40, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics.  

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
Resistance is futile

You know what amazes me about this discussion ?

The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. 

And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)


You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.

Cheers,

Hernán

 
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
>
> not one even bothered posting
> a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .

To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :)  :P
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-need-to-be-distinctive

cheers -ben

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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

hernanmd
In reply to this post by EstebanLM
Then more respect for the word, because many people gave their life for it.


2017-04-21 7:52 GMT-03:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
in fact, Greece had a pretty hard dictatorship from '67 to '74

On 21 Apr 2017, at 12:40, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think that 300 years of enslavement by the Ottoman Empire gave us (as a nation) a pretty good idea , plus the Great Fire of Smyrna, plus Nazi occupation etc. You assume too much. I was talking about Pharo by the way, not politics.  

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
2017-04-21 5:10 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
Resistance is futile

You know what amazes me about this discussion ?

The one thing that I find amazing is that we have like 58 messages already , many of them complain about the dark theme and not one even bothered posting a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one . How hard it is to trigger a shortcut to capture an image so we who love the dark theme can see why some people find it hard to use. 

And this is why I feel lucky that the deed is done and this is no democracy.... very happy indeed :)


You don't have ANY idea of how is to live without democracy.

Cheers,

Hernán

 
On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 8:48 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
I see in 60467 that the deed is done.  Okay, so moving forward... be
prepared ;) for a surge of feedback as a bunch of us
dark-theme-newbies start using it in earnest.  I understand those that
been using it a while already are obviously happy with how its tuned,
and probably not many things can be accommodated, but there is one
thing...

Maybe its that its 1AM, or its my astigmatism, but my first impression
was a shock at the high contrast pure-white-on-black text - for the
World Menu and System Browser - to the degree that my eyes felt
crosseyed.  Particularly the title-bar-text was jarring.  Dimming it
slightly made it *much* easier to focus.   Could
dark-theme-connoisseurs try this out...

Pharo3DarkTheme>>textColor
    ^ Color veryLightGray lighter


And wow!  That very bright green in TestRunner hurts.


Other than that, so far it looks cool.

cheers -ben


On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Stephane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> For the mooc we have normally an image: it is called Pharo 50.
>
> S.
>
> On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Mark Bestley <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > --001a113a8620c74f7a054d5aba55
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> >
>> > Not before IMMEDIATELY realizing that all screenshots containing the
>> > white
>> > theme are outdated and will IMMEDIATELY prefer the dark ones that will
>> > have
>> > an updated view of the Pharo GUI compared to a screenshot that has the
>> > white theme and it's outdated by two or more years.
>> >
>>
>> No they will think it is for a different environment and waste time
>> looking for a match.
>>
>> A beginner won't see that just that they cannot get the same answer as
>> the mooc or documentation.
>>
>> They will look for a language where the documentation matches what they
>> get as they don't know if the documentation or their code is wrong. (and
>> probably cast aspersions on the quality of what they are using)
>>
>> > Updating the screenshots for PBE5 was a big pain and I am sure there are
>> > ones that are left that are still outdated showing 1.4 , which is at
>> > least
>> > 6 years old.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Mark
>>
>>
>



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
In reply to this post by hernanmd
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:52 PM Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Then don't talk about democracy, because you weren't born at Ottoman Empire nor Nazi occupation, and many of us actually were born and lived under military dictatorship.

I am perplexed from your reply. First your logic makes zero sense for me. I am deeply touched by the pain embedded in the stories I read in books and personal witness accounts of several relatives that were present during Great Fire of Smyrna and the Nazi Occupation. My grandparents were "lucky" enough to suffer both and spared no details of the atrocities they witnessed. These stories have shaped my entire personal identity and guides me in life to respect and tolerate others. If i really needed to live in a non democratic regime to understand this then I would feel that I let these people down (which I  so dearly love) and I could never imagine myself doing that. 

If you want to know I am hardcore supporter of democracy , especially direct technocratic (technology and science based) democracy. So your reply makes me smile more than frustrate me because of how far from the truth you really are.

I was referring to Pharo and was definitely did not suggest to take arms and kill anyone who disagrees with us. As I already explained even in a democracy there is a chain of command and frankly a forum is a lousy way to exercise democratic leadership.  Not all participate here and messages are about complains and questions not praise. So its a bad representation of the community feelings though a great way to exchange knowledge an help each other. Its much easier and efficient to have a central committee as Pharo has that makes these decisions obviously by taking into account the community and what the users really want.  

Also as I stated form the start I do not have a problem with making or not making the dark theme the default theme. What I do like however is that we have a leadership that take decisions without having to apologise for them. They try to do their best to make the community happy and I think they do a pretty good job at it. Taking into account how extremely popular dark themes really are. 

Do not worry you wont be hearing or reading about my political beliefs, here or anywhere, I rarely mention them. People find them hard to digest and I am not very diplomatic at presenting them, but I am working on it :) 

In any case I am not offended by your remarks, I know you mean well and you just used my message as a way to express your anger for things unrelated to me. I respect your anger and your pain and I hope you find the healing you deserve and a happy life.  


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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
In reply to this post by Ben Coman


On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
>
> not one even bothered posting
> a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .

To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :)  :P
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-need-to-be-distinctive

cheers -ben


I mean in this thread , will make it easier, because for example fogbuz asks for a login. 

Though I agree bug reports is the best way to report these issues :) 

I think a potential solution would be to offer several Dark Themes instead of one, so maybe as a community we can agree a few of them and I can make then and Esteban integrate them. We could also do the same for the white theme. There is little reason to be only 2. This way we will have a happier community.
 
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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

hernanmd
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
How you could support democracy then putting smiles besides "no democracy"? I don't get it. Maybe you like dictatorship, good for you. I don't like them, benevolent or not.
You read stories in books. I had born in a military regime, me and my parents lived it, so what do you want to teach me about having military forces around?

Again, you don't have any idea of my mood, so please do yourself a favor and stop talking about things you don't really know.
Don't put ad hominem on me, if you want to support "benevolent" or malicious dictators good for you. But I don't have anything to do with your argumentation.



2017-04-21 8:22 GMT-03:00 Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:52 PM Hernán Morales Durand <[hidden email]> wrote:
Then don't talk about democracy, because you weren't born at Ottoman Empire nor Nazi occupation, and many of us actually were born and lived under military dictatorship.

I am perplexed from your reply. First your logic makes zero sense for me. I am deeply touched by the pain embedded in the stories I read in books and personal witness accounts of several relatives that were present during Great Fire of Smyrna and the Nazi Occupation. My grandparents were "lucky" enough to suffer both and spared no details of the atrocities they witnessed. These stories have shaped my entire personal identity and guides me in life to respect and tolerate others. If i really needed to live in a non democratic regime to understand this then I would feel that I let these people down (which I  so dearly love) and I could never imagine myself doing that. 

If you want to know I am hardcore supporter of democracy , especially direct technocratic (technology and science based) democracy. So your reply makes me smile more than frustrate me because of how far from the truth you really are.

I was referring to Pharo and was definitely did not suggest to take arms and kill anyone who disagrees with us. As I already explained even in a democracy there is a chain of command and frankly a forum is a lousy way to exercise democratic leadership.  Not all participate here and messages are about complains and questions not praise. So its a bad representation of the community feelings though a great way to exchange knowledge an help each other. Its much easier and efficient to have a central committee as Pharo has that makes these decisions obviously by taking into account the community and what the users really want.  

Also as I stated form the start I do not have a problem with making or not making the dark theme the default theme. What I do like however is that we have a leadership that take decisions without having to apologise for them. They try to do their best to make the community happy and I think they do a pretty good job at it. Taking into account how extremely popular dark themes really are. 

Do not worry you wont be hearing or reading about my political beliefs, here or anywhere, I rarely mention them. People find them hard to digest and I am not very diplomatic at presenting them, but I am working on it :) 

In any case I am not offended by your remarks, I know you mean well and you just used my message as a way to express your anger for things unrelated to me. I respect your anger and your pain and I hope you find the healing you deserve and a happy life.  



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
In reply to this post by kilon.alios
On 21/04/17 13:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM Ben Coman
> <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
>     <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>     > You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
>     >
>     > not one even bothered posting
>     > a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .
>
>     To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :)  :P
>     https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-need-to-be-distinctive
>
>     cheers -ben
>
>
> I mean in this thread , will make it easier, because for example fogbuz
> asks for a login.

You still haven't been paying attention. We have hard-coded colors all
over the place. And I am not interested in new bug reports now. I want
the theme switch reverted and done after the release. This is just bad
process and it should be stopped.

Stephan



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

kilon.alios
its ironic you say this Stephan 

and the irony is that you claim that Dark Theme is inappropriate because Pharo uses so many hard coded colours when it was Esteban's effort to have a dark theme that decreased the amount of hard coded methods and modified them to support themes.  The very reason you use that Dark Theme should not be used as default is the very reason to use it because it will forces us to detect those methods and convert them to support our Theme classes. This will not only improve the Dark Themes but ANY future theme. 

What I can say with certainty is that the way to move forward is most definitely not to move back. 

I also do not like the fact that GTSpotter has its own theme support , I found it a terrible idea when it first appeared, after a long time using GTSpotter , still find it a terrible idea that is completely disconnected from the main theme. 

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:49 PM Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 21/04/17 13:26, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:53 PM Ben Coman
> <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 4:10 PM, Dimitris Chloupis
>     <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>     > You know what amazes me about this discussion ?
>     >
>     > not one even bothered posting
>     > a single screenshot demonstration all these "problems" , just one .
>
>     To rebut you, you haven't been paying attention :)  :P
>     https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19941/Dark-Theme-overlapped-title-bars-need-to-be-distinctive
>
>     cheers -ben
>
>
> I mean in this thread , will make it easier, because for example fogbuz
> asks for a login.

You still haven't been paying attention. We have hard-coded colors all
over the place. And I am not interested in new bug reports now. I want
the theme switch reverted and done after the release. This is just bad
process and it should be stopped.

Stephan



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Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Stephan Eggermont-3
On 21/04/17 15:22, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:

> its ironic you say this Stephan
>
> and the irony is that you claim that Dark Theme is inappropriate because
> Pharo uses so many hard coded colours when it was Esteban's effort to
> have a dark theme that decreased the amount of hard coded methods and
> modified them to support themes.  The very reason you use that Dark
> Theme should not be used as default is the very reason to use it because
> it will forces us to detect those methods and convert them to support
> our Theme classes. This will not only improve the Dark Themes but ANY
> future theme.

No. That is just an indicator that we are far from finished, and that is
one good reason not to switch to it close to release. The other reasons are:
- it breaks our own feature freeze rule;
- giving us not enough time to test;
- the number of hard-coded colors suggests that our practical
(non-automated) test coverage is low and the actual users of dark theme
have usage patterns that miss parts of the system;
- it focuses attention on a part of the system that should be irrelevant
so close to release;
- it forces projects that depend on pharo to make changes now;
- making it more difficult for them to release close after pharo releases;
- and thus makes pharo release management look amateurish;
- it is a bad default for the majority of users;
- who will mostly not do any testing but only switch to light theme as
fast as possible, especially when confronted with a decision made like this;
- and is thus bad marketing;
- it is taking a lot of time from the people who should be doing more
productive things.

Stephan



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