[squeak-dev] Cuis update
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Hi Folks,
I've updated Cuis to #0182. I included a couple of fixes to issues in Polygons and Curves found by Jerome, and a new keyboard focus indicator. (No more annoying flashing!) You can download www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Cuis1.0-0182.zip . In that folder there is also a zip with change sets that could be useful for other Squeak distributions, and text descriptions of them. Cheers, Juan Vuletich Ps: I also updated the 'About' text as follows: About Cuis Cuis is a Smalltalk environment derived from Squeak (www.squeak.org). Main project web is at www.jvuletich.org/Cuis The main idea behind Cuis is to avoid unneeded complexity. Why? Because complexity puts a limit to the level of understanding of the system a person might reach, and therefore limits the things that can be done. Dan Ingalls says all this in "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" (a must read!). My passion is about finding the essence of ideas. In this regard I feel close to Alan's "Fundamentals of new Computing" ideas. But as I'm not a researcher, and I want a working system now, I am trying to distill the essence of Smalltalk-80 in Squeak drop by drop. Some of the main ideas and objectives for Cuis are: - Close to Smalltalk-80 and Dan Ingalls' ideas - Include only kernel functionality. Remove stuff considered optional - Included stuff should be in very good shape. - Include a greatly reduced version of Morphic as the main UI - Easy to fix and extend - Share fixes and enhancements with Squeak - Stable. Smalltalk kernel should not change much - Compatible to a reasonable degree with packages intended for other Squeak distributions - Lead by Juan Vuletich (jmv) after these principles What is the audience? Cuis should be the Smalltalk of choice to: - Smalltalkers who want a simpler system - Teachers teaching Smalltalk - People learning Smalltalk - Developers working for devices with little memory or CPU power - People wanting to experiment with new directions in language design, UI frameworks, etc - People wanting a reasonable kernel on which to build optional packages - People wanting a nice looking ide that is also portable Cuis owes its existence to Squeak and the Squeak community. We don't want to form a separate user community. We believe that the Squeak community is the natural place for people using the various Squeak distributions and derivatives. We want to share code and ideas with other Squeak distributions, including the official one. License Cuis is distributed subject to the MIT License, as in http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php . Any contribution submitted for incorporation into or for distribution with Cuis shall be presumed subject to the same license. Portions of Cuis are copyrighted works of many contributors to Squeak, Cuis and related projects. |
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Hi Juan,
Cuis looks really great! Thanks for sharing this! What I like especially are the great looking fonts, the small size and the performance. You seem to put an emphasis on high quality. I really, really like that. Having said this: I saw that you have only 18 SUnit tests - one (testGrabProcessorOnlyForTimeout) fails on Mac OS X, by the way. Are you planning to do more? What is your goal regarding test coverage? Please say 100%! ;-) Some more questions: - Are you working on Cuis alone? - How do you envision working together with your users? Are you planning to set up an update server in addition to the images? - How about contributions? What type of contributions would you like to receive? How? Should one e-mail you ChangeSets? - Can you share any plans regarding an improved Morphic? A small set of great-looking widgets for portable client applications could be a USP for you distribution, in my opinion. Now all I need is a project, I could use Cuis for, and some time. ;-) Cheers, Bernhard Am 14.04.2009 um 14:48 schrieb Juan Vuletich: > Hi Folks, > > I've updated Cuis to #0182. I included a couple of fixes to issues > in Polygons and Curves found by Jerome, and a new keyboard focus > indicator. (No more annoying flashing!) > > You can download www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Cuis1.0-0182.zip . In that > folder there is also a zip with change sets that could be useful for > other Squeak distributions, and text descriptions of them. > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > > Ps: I also updated the 'About' text as follows: > > About Cuis > > Cuis is a Smalltalk environment derived from Squeak > (www.squeak.org). Main project web is at www.jvuletich.org/Cuis > > The main idea behind Cuis is to avoid unneeded complexity. Why? > Because complexity puts a limit to the level of understanding of the > system a person might reach, and therefore limits the things that > can be done. Dan Ingalls says all this in "Design Principles Behind > Smalltalk" (a must read!). > > My passion is about finding the essence of ideas. In this regard I > feel close to Alan's "Fundamentals of new Computing" ideas. But as > I'm not a researcher, and I want a working system now, I am trying > to distill the essence of Smalltalk-80 in Squeak drop by drop. > > Some of the main ideas and objectives for Cuis are: > > - Close to Smalltalk-80 and Dan Ingalls' ideas > - Include only kernel functionality. Remove stuff considered optional > - Included stuff should be in very good shape. > - Include a greatly reduced version of Morphic as the main UI > - Easy to fix and extend > - Share fixes and enhancements with Squeak > - Stable. Smalltalk kernel should not change much > - Compatible to a reasonable degree with packages intended for other > Squeak distributions > - Lead by Juan Vuletich (jmv) after these principles > > What is the audience? Cuis should be the Smalltalk of choice to: > > - Smalltalkers who want a simpler system > - Teachers teaching Smalltalk > - People learning Smalltalk > - Developers working for devices with little memory or CPU power > - People wanting to experiment with new directions in language > design, UI frameworks, etc > - People wanting a reasonable kernel on which to build optional > packages > - People wanting a nice looking ide that is also portable > > Cuis owes its existence to Squeak and the Squeak community. We don't > want to form a separate user community. We believe that the Squeak > community is the natural place for people using the various Squeak > distributions and derivatives. We want to share code and ideas with > other Squeak distributions, including the official one. > > License > > Cuis is distributed subject to the MIT License, as in http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php > . Any contribution submitted for incorporation into or for > distribution with Cuis shall be presumed subject to the same license. > > Portions of Cuis are copyrighted works of many contributors to > Squeak, Cuis and related projects. > > |
Re: [squeak-dev] Cuis update
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In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4
On 4/15/09, Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Folks, > > I've updated Cuis to #0182. I included a couple of fixes to issues in > Polygons and Curves found by Jerome, and a new keyboard focus indicator. > (No more annoying flashing!) > > You can download www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Cuis1.0-0182.zip . In that > folder there is also a zip with change sets that could be useful for > other Squeak distributions, and text descriptions of them. Nice! It's a pretty fast system, and very similar to Squeak. I might adopt it as I don't particularly like the lagginess in my current Squeak environment. My comments: * Yech! A baby-blue background! Why do Squeakers always use feminine, baby-like colours such as pink debuggers and bright green backgrounds? Why not a strong masculine dark-blue background? * BlockContext>>grabProcessor: relies on the implementation of the scheduler. This image would break on a hypothetical multi-core VM. I'd discourage it's implementation and use. * Have you fixed some Semaphore related bugs? I see tests but I haven't spent time trying to understand them. * I like the fonts :-). And the seriously simplified menus. Not that I actually ever use them for anything more than opening a browser and workspace... and setting the background to dark blue. * Did you clean out a lot of methods from Object? It seems... tidier. * Yay! Keyboard navigation! I like it! It's got all the bits of Squeak I normally use, but with a lot less baggage. My main concern is how easily Monticello can be loaded into it. Gulik. -- http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
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In reply to this post by bpi
Hi Bernhard,
Bernhard Pieber wrote: > Hi Juan, > > Cuis looks really great! Thanks for sharing this! What I like > especially are the great looking fonts, the small size and the > performance. You seem to put an emphasis on high quality. I really, > really like that. Having said this: I saw that you have only 18 SUnit > tests - one (testGrabProcessorOnlyForTimeout) fails on Mac OS X, by > the way. Are you planning to do more? What is your goal regarding test > coverage? Please say 100%! ;-) Thanks! I'm glad you like it. I'll check that failing test. At some moment, I'd grab all the test from the current Squeak release, and load in Cuis those that make sense here. Of course, the goal is 100% test coverage. It is just that I'm doing nothing towards it! > > Some more questions: > - Are you working on Cuis alone? Yes. But as I take bug fixes from Squeak, in a sense, every Squeak contributor is a Cuis contributor too. > - How do you envision working together with your users? Are you > planning to set up an update server in addition to the images? If there enough people interested, I hope somebody will volunteer to help with those things. I don't have much time left... > - How about contributions? What type of contributions would you like > to receive? How? Should one e-mail you ChangeSets? I'd like contributions that help with Cuis objectives, as stated in "About". If you need to spend a significant amount of time on some contribution, please write to me first. I am a bit picky with code (that's what drives Cuis after all!), and it would be too bad if I reject your code wasting your time. BTW, Cuis is under the MIT license. Any contribution needs to be under MIT too. Email with ChangeSets is ok. > - Can you share any plans regarding an improved Morphic? A small set > of great-looking widgets for portable client applications could be a > USP for you distribution, in my opinion. I'm working on what I call Morphic 3. You can read about it at http://www.jvuletich.org/Morphic3/TheFutureOfTheGUI_01.html (a bit outdated. I'd write more about it). Morphic 3 is experimental, and still far from the widgets you say. Cuis includes a widget set named rooted at class LightWidget. It is aimed at embedded systems. Not great looking, but simple and efficient. I believe there is still room for another set of widgets, modern looking, for client applications. I'd like to help in such a project if you or anybody else wants to do it. But I can't do it myself, for lack of time. > > Now all I need is a project, I could use Cuis for, and some time. ;-) > > Cheers, > Bernhard > :) Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
Michael van der Gulik wrote:
> Nice! It's a pretty fast system, and very similar to Squeak. I might > adopt it as I don't particularly like the lagginess in my current > Squeak environment. > Thanks! > My comments: > > * Yech! A baby-blue background! Why do Squeakers always use feminine, > baby-like colours such as pink debuggers and bright green backgrounds? > Why not a strong masculine dark-blue background? > I have two little girls, 1 and 5 y.o. You're lucky the background is not pink! :) > * BlockContext>>grabProcessor: relies on the implementation of the > scheduler. This image would break on a hypothetical multi-core VM. I'd > discourage it's implementation and use. > Well, there are many things that would break in such a VM. For instance, you need to reimplement the scheduler. I found that grabProcessor: makes one specific concurrency pattern easy to use. We have some shared state. It might be modified by the UI and one or more lower priority processes. The default would be to protect everything with Semaphores. This is easier. The UI will not be preempted by lower priority processes. So, all I need in the UI is that event response methods leave the shared state consistent upon return. Each of the lower priority processes could be preempted while modifying the state, leading to problems. So, they use #grabProcessor:. The idea is this "I'm low priority. I can wait. But once you let me run, let me finish." On a preempting or multithreading environment, this can implemented too if needed. > * Have you fixed some Semaphore related bugs? I see tests but I > haven't spent time trying to understand them. > All those fixes are from Andreas. I just loaded them. > * I like the fonts :-). And the seriously simplified menus. Not that I > actually ever use them for anything more than opening a browser and > workspace... and setting the background to dark blue. > :) > * Did you clean out a lot of methods from Object? It seems... tidier. > Yes. I am cleaning all the time! > * Yay! Keyboard navigation! > Good! I am still not sure whether it is useful or not. You liking it is good news! > I like it! It's got all the bits of Squeak I normally use, but with a > lot less baggage. My main concern is how easily Monticello can be > loaded into it. > > Gulik. > > I don't think loading Monticello should be a big problem. Please try. I'll try to help with any problems you find. Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
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In reply to this post by Juan Vuletich-4
Is there any chance the Pharo folks would be open to exploring whether Cuis
can be used as a base for their work? It might let them focus on what they *really* want for Pharo. Looking at the Pharo milestones http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones I see many not-yet-done things that overlap Cuis and that are already done in Cuis: - default in-image fonts - etoys removal - re-org MorphicExtras - remove SqueakMap & Installer - License clean ... plus Cuis size & responsiveness is great :-): In the medium+ term I suspect it would speed up their progress. If they are, is there any chance Juan would be open to helping them get there? Of course given the moving parts and people this may be a silly question, but I just thought I would ask. My 2c -- Sophie "Juan Vuletich" <[hidden email]> wrote in message news:[hidden email]... > Hi Folks, > > I've updated Cuis to #0182. I included a couple of fixes to issues in > Polygons and Curves found by Jerome, and a new keyboard focus indicator. > (No more annoying flashing!) > > You can download www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Cuis1.0-0182.zip . In that folder > there is also a zip with change sets that could be useful for other Squeak > distributions, and text descriptions of them. > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > > Ps: I also updated the 'About' text as follows: > > About Cuis > > Cuis is a Smalltalk environment derived from Squeak (www.squeak.org). Main > project web is at www.jvuletich.org/Cuis > > The main idea behind Cuis is to avoid unneeded complexity. Why? Because > complexity puts a limit to the level of understanding of the system a > person might reach, and therefore limits the things that can be done. Dan > Ingalls says all this in "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" (a must > read!). > > My passion is about finding the essence of ideas. In this regard I feel > close to Alan's "Fundamentals of new Computing" ideas. But as I'm not a > researcher, and I want a working system now, I am trying to distill the > essence of Smalltalk-80 in Squeak drop by drop. > > Some of the main ideas and objectives for Cuis are: > > - Close to Smalltalk-80 and Dan Ingalls' ideas > - Include only kernel functionality. Remove stuff considered optional > - Included stuff should be in very good shape. > - Include a greatly reduced version of Morphic as the main UI > - Easy to fix and extend > - Share fixes and enhancements with Squeak > - Stable. Smalltalk kernel should not change much > - Compatible to a reasonable degree with packages intended for other > Squeak distributions > - Lead by Juan Vuletich (jmv) after these principles > > What is the audience? Cuis should be the Smalltalk of choice to: > > - Smalltalkers who want a simpler system > - Teachers teaching Smalltalk > - People learning Smalltalk > - Developers working for devices with little memory or CPU power > - People wanting to experiment with new directions in language design, UI > frameworks, etc > - People wanting a reasonable kernel on which to build optional packages > - People wanting a nice looking ide that is also portable > > Cuis owes its existence to Squeak and the Squeak community. We don't want > to form a separate user community. We believe that the Squeak community is > the natural place for people using the various Squeak distributions and > derivatives. We want to share code and ideas with other Squeak > distributions, including the official one. > > License > > Cuis is distributed subject to the MIT License, as in > http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php . Any contribution > submitted for incorporation into or for distribution with Cuis shall be > presumed subject to the same license. > > Portions of Cuis are copyrighted works of many contributors to Squeak, > Cuis and related projects. > > > |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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Hi Sophie,
i'm not an authority in Pharo development, but I can try to give an incomplete answer: - yes, Pharo people are certainly interested in Cuis achievements; - no, I doubt they restart all the hard work having taken place last 9 months or so. Main Pharo delay is due to integrating changes about Unicode and Eliot's BlockClosure that are both seen as major features. I think it is a wise decision, and anyway intermediate 0.1 releases are usable. ... and I don't think these particular features are in Cuis. Another question is how can progress in various squeak branches be shared... Keith's Installer/Sake/Bob framework should provide some tools to help. But I doubt there is an easy answer. Hard work and sweat... cheers Nicolas 2009/4/15 Sophie (itsme213) <[hidden email]>: > Is there any chance the Pharo folks would be open to exploring whether Cuis > can be used as a base for their work? It might let them focus on what they > *really* want for Pharo. > > Looking at the Pharo milestones > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones I see many not-yet-done > things that overlap Cuis and that are already done in Cuis: > - default in-image fonts > - etoys removal > - re-org MorphicExtras > - remove SqueakMap & Installer > - License clean > > ... plus Cuis size & responsiveness is great :-): > > In the medium+ term I suspect it would speed up their progress. > > If they are, is there any chance Juan would be open to helping them get > there? > > Of course given the moving parts and people this may be a silly question, > but I just thought I would ask. > > My 2c -- Sophie > > > "Juan Vuletich" <[hidden email]> wrote in message > news:[hidden email]... >> Hi Folks, >> >> I've updated Cuis to #0182. I included a couple of fixes to issues in >> Polygons and Curves found by Jerome, and a new keyboard focus indicator. >> (No more annoying flashing!) >> >> You can download www.jvuletich.org/Cuis/Cuis1.0-0182.zip . In that folder >> there is also a zip with change sets that could be useful for other Squeak >> distributions, and text descriptions of them. >> >> Cheers, >> Juan Vuletich >> >> Ps: I also updated the 'About' text as follows: >> >> About Cuis >> >> Cuis is a Smalltalk environment derived from Squeak (www.squeak.org). Main >> project web is at www.jvuletich.org/Cuis >> >> The main idea behind Cuis is to avoid unneeded complexity. Why? Because >> complexity puts a limit to the level of understanding of the system a >> person might reach, and therefore limits the things that can be done. Dan >> Ingalls says all this in "Design Principles Behind Smalltalk" (a must >> read!). >> >> My passion is about finding the essence of ideas. In this regard I feel >> close to Alan's "Fundamentals of new Computing" ideas. But as I'm not a >> researcher, and I want a working system now, I am trying to distill the >> essence of Smalltalk-80 in Squeak drop by drop. >> >> Some of the main ideas and objectives for Cuis are: >> >> - Close to Smalltalk-80 and Dan Ingalls' ideas >> - Include only kernel functionality. Remove stuff considered optional >> - Included stuff should be in very good shape. >> - Include a greatly reduced version of Morphic as the main UI >> - Easy to fix and extend >> - Share fixes and enhancements with Squeak >> - Stable. Smalltalk kernel should not change much >> - Compatible to a reasonable degree with packages intended for other >> Squeak distributions >> - Lead by Juan Vuletich (jmv) after these principles >> >> What is the audience? Cuis should be the Smalltalk of choice to: >> >> - Smalltalkers who want a simpler system >> - Teachers teaching Smalltalk >> - People learning Smalltalk >> - Developers working for devices with little memory or CPU power >> - People wanting to experiment with new directions in language design, UI >> frameworks, etc >> - People wanting a reasonable kernel on which to build optional packages >> - People wanting a nice looking ide that is also portable >> >> Cuis owes its existence to Squeak and the Squeak community. We don't want >> to form a separate user community. We believe that the Squeak community is >> the natural place for people using the various Squeak distributions and >> derivatives. We want to share code and ideas with other Squeak >> distributions, including the official one. >> >> License >> >> Cuis is distributed subject to the MIT License, as in >> http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php . Any contribution >> submitted for incorporation into or for distribution with Cuis shall be >> presumed subject to the same license. >> >> Portions of Cuis are copyrighted works of many contributors to Squeak, >> Cuis and related projects. >> >> >> > > > > > |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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In reply to this post by Sophie424
Hi Sophie,
Sophie (itsme213) wrote: > Is there any chance the Pharo folks would be open to exploring whether Cuis > can be used as a base for their work? It might let them focus on what they > *really* want for Pharo. > I guess you should ask them, not me! > Looking at the Pharo milestones > http://code.google.com/p/pharo/wiki/Milestones I see many not-yet-done > things that overlap Cuis and that are already done in Cuis: > - default in-image fonts > - etoys removal > - re-org MorphicExtras > - remove SqueakMap & Installer > - License clean > > ... plus Cuis size & responsiveness is great :-): > > In the medium+ term I suspect it would speed up their progress. > > If they are, is there any chance Juan would be open to helping them get > there? > If course! It would be great. > Of course given the moving parts and people this may be a silly question, > but I just thought I would ask. > > My 2c -- Sophie > It is good you did. Thanks. Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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> I guess you should ask them, not me!
Does Seaside run on Cuis? What about unicode, closures, method annotations, literal byte arrays support? Lukas -- Lukas Renggli http://www.lukas-renggli.ch |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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Lukas Renggli wrote:
> > Does Seaside run on Cuis? > I don't know. I don't see why it would not run. > What about unicode Considered optional. Please read "About Cuis" in the Cuis image. > closures Not yet, but I'll address it if important. > method annotations, literal byte arrays support? > Never heard of those. > Lukas > Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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2009/4/15 Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]>:
> Lukas Renggli wrote: >> >> Does Seaside run on Cuis? >> > > I don't know. I don't see why it would not run. > >> What about unicode > > Considered optional. Please read "About Cuis" in the Cuis image. IMO, in 21st century unicode support is A MUST for any development environment. Of course, if you consider Cuis as dev environment, not as a toy. > >> closures > > Not yet, but I'll address it if important. > >> method annotations, literal byte arrays support? >> > > Never heard of those. >> >> Lukas >> Certainly, i would not expect from Juan's project to have so much features/goals, than Pharo have. Simply because its one man job. Still i think Cuis is good showcase, but as Lukas mentioned it not offers something new. > > Cheers, > Juan Vuletich > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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On 4/16/09, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 2009/4/15 Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]>: >> Lukas Renggli wrote: >>> >>> Does Seaside run on Cuis? >>> >> >> I don't know. I don't see why it would not run. >> >>> What about unicode >> >> Considered optional. Please read "About Cuis" in the Cuis image. > > IMO, in 21st century unicode support is A MUST for any development > environment. Of course, if you consider Cuis as dev environment, not > as a toy. That was my initial reaction too. But then I realised that Smalltalk code and comments are usually written in English. Unicode is optional until you want to write applications for non-English speaking people or want to comment your code in another language. Gulik. -- http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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On Thursday 16 April 2009 8:51:17 am Michael van der Gulik wrote:
> But then I realised that Smalltalk code and comments are usually > written in English. You mean ASCII or Latin-1? > Unicode is optional until you want to write > applications for non-English speaking people or want to comment your > code in another language. Or you want to deal with text flowing in from other software either on the same machine or a network. Every other programming environment has moved to UTF-8 for text interchange to deal with the flat world. Perhaps you missed out a smiley? Subbu |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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In reply to this post by Michael van der Gulik-2
2009/4/16 Michael van der Gulik <[hidden email]>:
> On 4/16/09, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: >> 2009/4/15 Juan Vuletich <[hidden email]>: >>> Lukas Renggli wrote: >>>> >>>> Does Seaside run on Cuis? >>>> >>> >>> I don't know. I don't see why it would not run. >>> >>>> What about unicode >>> >>> Considered optional. Please read "About Cuis" in the Cuis image. >> >> IMO, in 21st century unicode support is A MUST for any development >> environment. Of course, if you consider Cuis as dev environment, not >> as a toy. > > That was my initial reaction too. > > But then I realised that Smalltalk code and comments are usually > written in English. Unicode is optional until you want to write > applications for non-English speaking people or want to comment your > code in another language. > The code and comments apart from their own beauty having zero value, if it can't properly interact with users/outside world. No wonder, why squeak/smalltalk so unpopular - because of little care about providing a means to write a real-world applications. In such state, its useful just for experimenting/doing academic research. > Gulik. > > -- > http://gulik.pbwiki.com/ > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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Hi
Yes. This thing is *extremely* annoying. You can cut and paste any string to anything, but you cannot do it in squeak. There's no point in making complicated things when you cannot do what even the stupidest text editor does. Most of the planet does NOT speak English. Most of the planet needs string content that is not in Latin chars. So most of the planet has no use for squeak. I love Smalltalk, but this is a fact and it's going to put off people until it gets solved. Berto |
[squeak-dev] Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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Bèrto ëd Sèra wrote:
> Yes. This thing is *extremely* annoying. You can cut and paste any > string to anything, but you cannot do it in squeak. Really? I don't recall seeing a bug report from you. What platform are you on? What problems did you have? You really should report such problems when you have them - how do you expect us to fix problems that we don't know about? Cheers, - Andreas |
[squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)
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On 16.04.2009, at 09:24, Andreas Raab wrote:
> Bèrto ëd Sèra wrote: >> Yes. This thing is *extremely* annoying. You can cut and paste any >> string to anything, but you cannot do it in squeak. > > Really? I don't recall seeing a bug report from you. What platform > are you on? What problems did you have? You really should report > such problems when you have them - how do you expect us to fix > problems that we don't know about? Err, we know quite well about these problems. Typing unicode chars don't work because the utf32 charcode is not used by the released image. To paste unicode text on the Mac you would need the image support for the extendend clipboard plugin. But even if typing or pasting works, the fonts only cover the latin-1 range, not full unicode. Neither Freetype nor HostFonts nor Pango support is in the released image, nor did we standardize on one. All of these issues have been solved already, but did not make it into a release afaik. - Bert - |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pasting unicode (was Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update)
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Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> On 16.04.2009, at 09:24, Andreas Raab wrote: > >> Bèrto ëd Sèra wrote: >>> Yes. This thing is *extremely* annoying. You can cut and paste any >>> string to anything, but you cannot do it in squeak. >> >> Really? I don't recall seeing a bug report from you. What platform >> are you on? What problems did you have? You really should report such >> problems when you have them - how do you expect us to fix problems >> that we don't know about? > > > Err, we know quite well about these problems. Typing unicode chars > don't work because the utf32 charcode is not used by the released > image. To paste unicode text on the Mac you would need the image > support for the extendend clipboard plugin. But even if typing or > pasting works, the fonts only cover the latin-1 range, not full > unicode. Neither Freetype nor HostFonts nor Pango support is in the > released image, nor did we standardize on one. > > All of these issues have been solved already, but did not make it into > a release afaik. > > - Bert - > Cuis. Or does anybody expect that besides doing 5 years of cleaning towards a simpler and faster image, I also need to address all these issues myself? The whole idea of optional packages is to draw a boundary between the kernel and each of them, to allow different people to focus on different problems. Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
Re: [squeak-dev] Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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In reply to this post by Bèrto ëd Sèra
Bèrto ëd Sèra wrote:
> Hi > > > The code and comments apart from their own beauty having zero value, > if it can't properly interact with users/outside world. > > > Yes. This thing is *extremely* annoying. You can cut and paste any > string to anything, but you cannot do it in squeak. There's no point > in making complicated things when you cannot do what even the > stupidest text editor does. Most of the planet does NOT speak English. > Most of the planet needs string content that is not in Latin chars. So > most of the planet has no use for squeak. > > I love Smalltalk, but this is a fact and it's going to put off people > until it gets solved. > > Berto What I'm going to say is not only for Bèrto, but for many. This is an open source project. This is the developers community ("squeak-dev", right?). You are not expected to complain and wait. You are expected to help. Cheers, Juan Vuletich |
Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Pharo:: Re: Cuis update
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In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab
2009/4/16 Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> LOL Andreas... 99,999% of first-time users will NEVER fill a bug. They will go out and say "It's pure bullshit". :))))) Come on... we all do it ten times a day.
As per myself... I discussed this thing on IRC a number of times, wrote about it here because under Win even directory paths prevent Squeak from working and all I got was the usual kind of thing you get from unstable Open Source stuff: not much really, but at least it didn't cost me a penny. No probs, I switched OS and images until I found a configuration that works for what I need, but while I can use Squeak for development I surely don't plan to distribute it. It is self-evident that the community is currently too small to make a stable distro. I admire you all for what you are doing, and I will contribute as much as I can, but customers want things that do not break. Google around a bit in languages that don't use Latin and see what people says of squeak... this surely doesn't help in getting the critical mass squeak needs. Nobody's personal fault, sure. Yet the problem remains and it's a tough one. Berto PS: this is one mail I found ========================== Hi Bčrto - This looks like a bug in the UTF-8 conversion that the VM does. I'll check it. As a workaround, you can try an earlier VM to see if this helps. Cheers, - Andreas Bčrto ėd Sčra wrote:
Hi all,
generates a string in the form path+username which results in trouble: 'C:\Program Files\Squeak\Įżšņó'. My username on the system is in cyrillic, and this really looks like it.I have a weird thing happening. I downloaded the latest squeak and when it opens it immediately delivers this error. Okay, so I open and close the emergency evaluator then I can work. But as soon as I try to save an updated image... here we go again. So no saving, which is obviously bad. Running on XP pro 2002 version, SP2 (russian edition) Squeak 3.10.2 It looks like the problem is connected to my filesystem strings. In secureUserDirectory dir := self primSecureUserDirectory. Then in convertFromWithConverter (ByteString) the exception is raised. I've been googling a bit about this, but I cannot seem to find much. Any hint at what we should do? It does look like a problem that is going to occur over and over again, and since the app I'm about to write deals with languages and thousands of different scripts... This is a bit worrying. Let me know. |
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