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[squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

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Stephen Pair

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

Janko,

I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but could you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would you consider also making it available under MIT? I personally am hesitant to do anything with software under any L/GPL type license. I think others have a similar concern and that might be an issue if a number of the squeak websites used Aida. It's an honest question, I have no agenda here (other than a concern over L/GPL type licenses).

- Stephen

P.S. My opinion on L/GPL is that these licenses served a useful purpose and were a necessity to prevent Unix vendors from simply co-opting Stallman's work at a time when open source wasn't the norm. But today, the situation is much different. Open source is largely accepted and its value well understood. GPL and LGPL impose unnecessary restrictions on use and only serve to complicate matters. I can appreciate why Stallman is so stuck on GPL given his experiences, but I think he's sort of stuck in the past.

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Squeakers,

I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.

Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).

That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.

To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
things such site needs to have those days.

Janko

Ken Causey wrote:
> While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
> some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
> In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
> down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
> He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
> leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
> really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
> immediate future at the very least.
>
> Ken
>
>
> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 19:29 -0300, Germán Arduino wrote:
>> I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.
>>
>> Thanks you.
>>
>>
>> 2008/3/13, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]>:
>>> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
>>>
>>>
>>> Ron Teitelbaum
>>>

>>> > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]> écrivait :
>>> >
>>> > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
>>> > years,
>>> > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
>>> > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
>>> > >website, ftp and mailing list.
>>> > >
>>> > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
>>> > the
>>> > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >Karl
>>> >
>>> > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Brad Fuller-4

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

All,

Why do you want to change the website? I'm not saying it shouldn't
change. But, I don't think it should change just because it doesn't
look like any of the other "modern" site. First, I'd like to hear
some good reasons of why it shoudl change and, more importantly, what
will it change to.

In other words, the content and design is more important than any new
fangled engine. I hear it's "stagnant" (etc.) Ok, what the heck is
wrong with it and what do you propose to change?

(I'm not being defensive, I'm just trying to serve the people that use the site)

--
Brad Fuller
www.bradfuller.com

Randal L. Schwartz

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Stephen Pair

>>>>> "Stephen" == Stephen Pair <[hidden email]> writes:

Stephen> I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but
Stephen> could you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would
Stephen> you consider also making it available under MIT? I personally am
Stephen> hesitant to do anything with software under any L/GPL type license.
Stephen> I think others have a similar concern and that might be an issue if a
Stephen> number of the squeak websites used Aida. It's an honest question, I
Stephen> have no agenda here (other than a concern over L/GPL type licenses).

+1, as I've already spoken my opinion about GPL with relation to getting
things accepted commercially.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!

Lukas Renggli

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Brian Rice

> Not Smallwiki2/Pier? Huh, that's what I thought was there.

The Squeak website runs with SmallWiki, which is the predecessor of
Pier. This is a port from VisualWorks and does not base on Seaside.

Pier is based on Seaside and developed in Squeak. To some extent it is
backward compatible to SmallWiki. It comes with dozens of plugins and
is proven technology for years for many sites (including the one of
Seaside). All code is MIT licensed.

http://www.iam.unibe.ch/~scg/Archive/Reports/Reng07c.pdf

> I *would* like SqueakSource to be MUCH more friendly to external
> linking (some would say RESTful; I just want it SEO-friendly) but we'd
> need to wrangle some effort in that direction (no one in charge of SqS
> claims to have the time to do it yet).

SqueakSource (www.squeaksource.com) is not part of the
SqueakFoundation, it is privately hosted by the University of Bern.
SqueakSource is RESTful to some extent, repositories and projects can
be bookmarked (at least in the latest version).

Lukas

--
Lukas Renggli
http://www.lukas-renggli.ch

cedreek

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Brian Rice

> While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I
> think you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against
> Seaside to be a serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO
> tasks, and the Squeak website itself could certainly be improved in
> that way, I fear that your solutions will inherently involve your
> favorite hammer rather than working within Seaside (aka "what we
> have") the ways it provides.
>

*His solution* was not Janko initiative. Ken Kausey suggested him on
IRC and I think it's a good idea. Seaside has already a lot of
promotion IMHO. Personnaly, I think there is room for both...
especially if you consider the squeak site is *static* so I don't
really see interest in having seaside used here (of course Pier could
do it) as we could not say there are high level business processes in
the squeak sites...).

Of course Janko promotes his babies but not too obtrusively to me. I
don't remember him saying aida is better than seaside or whatever. He
also reckons, doing business processes in aida is not as straight as
in seaside. The only think he advocate is aida is simple to learn and
use.

>
> Aida/Scribe CMS is the "most advanced technology Squeakers have"?
> While it's probably quite good, I think you're revealing your self-
> interest.

I think he's talking in general. Janko also develops Swazoo where
seaside and aida can run on top of... I think he'd like a 100%
smalltak powered approach ;-) avoiding Apache if possible...

>
> I don't want to debate which framework or approach to web development
> is better (and neither do you, apparently, having made your choice and
> vocalizing it constantly), but Squeak does have a CMS and it seems to
> serve us as a community well enough to keep improving it.

Smallwiki ?

> Seaside also
> provides us with some very innovative approaches to web applications
> development that it alone is good PR for the community.

yes and ? Are you sure it's appropriate here ?

>
> I spend a lot of time with non-Smalltalkers who do web development,
> and myself am currently working on web applications in a non-Smalltalk
> (yet palatable) environment, so my bias is towards the perspective of
> outsiders who are looking for open accessible information and
> exposition of the Squeak community and its artifacts. I would offer my
> candidacy as an alternative to your proposed deal in which you link
> your volunteerism to lead with an "upgrade" of the site to the
> application framework you author and self-promote.

Why don't you join with Janko ? The hard work is more about content
that technologies involved anyway and you seem interested in
content...

>
> I think the main "upgrade" we do need is for the Squeak Swiki, which
> is many years old and doesn't help us with SEO at all, as I have
> repeatedly found out while trying to google some solution for new
> Squeakers. Aida could possibly help with that, but so could many other
> choices. In any case, the answer is more about content and making
> Squeak and Squeak information findable than any technology.

I agree but this is another thread...

my 2 cents

Cédrick

ps: I've only seaside so far...

Janko Mivšek

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab

Hi Andreas,

Andreas Raab wrote:
> Igor Stasenko wrote:
>> If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
>> stagnation and movement i choose movement.
>
> I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
> such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
> big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
> by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)

Yes, that's a right question to ask: what are guaranties for long-term
commitment and quality of proposed solution. And how open is that
solution so that in any unfortunate case the community is not stuck.

1. Aida is not one-man-band anymore, it has now quite vibrant community
of contributors and especially users developing and running their own
sites [1, 2]. This is a guarantee that there are more than one who is
knowledgeable in Aida and already in Scribo. And many of them are
preparing to help in WebTeam, so community won't stuck.

2. I'm earning all my money on Aida and Scribo based solutions for 12
years now (Scribo 5 years). This will continue for many years more, so
here is a guarantee of my commitment to that technology.

3. Scribo is actually 5 years old commercial document and business
process management technology (BiArt), a core of which is now
open-sourced and will be released under the name Scribo. All existing
BiArt systems are already migrating on top of Scribo, which is a
guarantee that Scribo will live also out of pure business interest.

4.Scribo content is file based, with XML metadata about all content
attributes. Therefore is completely independent of technology above and
this design decision was made intentionally in BiArt, besides
independence of content also to enable a long term archiving of content
(20 years or more). Content is stored in formats which are
archive-friendly and just FYI, BiArt systems are used as legally valid
archive systems. Here the long term guaranty for the content.

5. I'm hosting near 40 websites on Aida/Web on a collocated server, most
of them are hosted BiArts for my customers, with a 99.99% uptime [3].
Here a guarantee that I'm taking web business seriously and know, how to
monitor and run things continuously, without disruption.

I hope that this answers to most of doubts about the proposal.

Janko

[1] http://www.aidaweb.si/community.html
[2] http://www.aidaweb.si/success-stories.html
[3] http://www.aidaweb.si/admin.html?view=serverStatistics

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Janko Mivšek

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Simon Michael

Hi Simon,

Simon Michael wrote:

> that's a nice list, Matthew. And the planets are running Venus, a python
> blog aggregator. So we have a nice little collection going here.
>
> I appreciate Janko's offer and I'm interested to see what he can come up
> with as a demo, and if it's better, I'd vote to jump to it. Let the bar
> be raised, and Seaside folks are free to raise it again!

Demo is a good idea. Let me try to come out during a weekend so that you
can see Scribo in action. I'll try to support first page of squeak.org
for instance ...

JAnko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Janko Mivšek

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab

Andreas Raab wrote:
> Igor Stasenko wrote:

>> Well, i hope Janko understands how hard it can be. And if he really
>> thinks that he capable to work things out, then why not. Nevertheless,
>> we have to put trust in people time to time :)

> Sure. But part of trusting him to work things out is to trust him to
> come up with a plan that can address these issues, no? (and by "plan" I
> mean nothing complicated - just a staging site so that people can have a
> look at it and the board can decide when it's ready to go live)

A test website with all current content migrated is definitively a must
to do before switching to a new CMS. And a demo to see the features and
possibilities how to contribute, publish, edit and maintain content too.
As I already said I'll try to provide such demo during a weekend, then
we can discuss further steps.

Janko

>
>> As i noticed, i'd vote for seasider, but if there is nobody else who
>> can commit enough time to remake site and support it, then what
>> choices do we have?
>
> We have the choice of the status quo.
>
> Cheers,
> - Andreas
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Janko Mivšek

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko

Igor Stasenko wrote:

> I really don't care (as well as 99.9% of others) what software
> delivers content to my browser
> as long as it does it fast and site looking good and convenient to
> navigate/find required information. The list, provided by Matthew
> perfectly reflects that.
>
> I would really better consider about inviting a good web designer to
> refresh 'face' of squeak than about what platform to choose for
> content management.
> We both know that things sell themselves better if they're eye candy :)

That's actually a main duty of a WebTeam in my opinion and it is good
that you mention it, because we sail just too deep in technical part of
the story.

So, how to improve content and website design? This is actually hardest
question and by my experience maintaining aidaweb.si definitively hard.
You need to keep an eye on it all the time, be careful to refresh
content regularly and keep it consistent. Maybe with delegation of this
duty to more people, to those which are closer to a "semantic" of content?

About design, we are just in process to redesign our site and maybe we
can extend that redesign to squeak site too. Let we keep that in mind
for a bit more.

Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Janko Mivšek

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Stephen Pair

Hi Stephen,

Well, yes, licenses again. We can relicence to MIT or whatever else,
because for me all what is important is to use the code in accordance to
the main rule on our world: a Golden Rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

Best regards
Janko

Stephen Pair wrote:

> Janko,
>
> I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but
> could you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would you
> consider also making it available under MIT? I personally am hesitant
> to do anything with software under any L/GPL type license. I think
> others have a similar concern and that might be an issue if a number of
> the squeak websites used Aida. It's an honest question, I have no
> agenda here (other than a concern over L/GPL type licenses).
>
> - Stephen
>
> P.S. My opinion on L/GPL is that these licenses served a useful purpose
> and were a necessity to prevent Unix vendors from simply co-opting
> Stallman's work at a time when open source wasn't the norm. But today,
> the situation is much different. Open source is largely accepted and
> its value well understood. GPL and LGPL impose unnecessary restrictions
> on use and only serve to complicate matters. I can appreciate why
> Stallman is so stuck on GPL given his experiences, but I think he's sort
> of stuck in the past.
>
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Hi Squeakers,
>
> I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
> community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
>
> Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
> and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
> how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
>
> That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
> Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
> technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
> Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
> intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
> will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
> Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in
> general.
>
> To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
> also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
> website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
> things such site needs to have those days.
>
> Janko
>
> Ken Causey wrote:
> > While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
> > some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
> > In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
> > down from leading the website team and would like to find a
> replacement.
> > He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
> > leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it
> is now
> > really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
> > immediate future at the very least.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 19:29 -0300, Germán Arduino wrote:
> >> I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting,
> complete and cool.
> >>
> >> Thanks you.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2008/3/13, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
> >>> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the
> community!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ron Teitelbaum
> >>>
>
> >>> > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> écrivait :
> >>> >
> >>> > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
> >>> > years,
> >>> > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars
> 31 I will
> >>> > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to
> maintain the
> >>> > >website, ftp and mailing list.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web
> appearence join
> >>> > the
> >>> > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Karl
> >>> >
> >>> > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> AIDA/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Stephen Pair

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

That is excellent news! Thank you.

- Stephen

P.S. While I think having good interoperability with the web world is important, part of me is saddened by the fact that we still have to live with the web...the web is crap. I hate it, I'm tried of it, I wish it would die already. We need something better...much better. And I think the opportunity for someone to invent that is right now. I think a lot of the discussion around Silverlight, Flash, Air, etc highlight the fact that people are hungry for something much better.

P.P.S. And I say this as someone that invested a lot of time a number of years ago working on Comanche.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 9:41 AM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Stephen,

Well, yes, licenses again. We can relicence to MIT or whatever else,
because for me all what is important is to use the code in accordance to
the main rule on our world: a Golden Rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity

Best regards
Janko

Stephen Pair wrote:
> Janko,
>
> I hate to drag this up again, and maybe you've covered it before, but
> could you share your reasoning behind licensing Aida as LGPL. Would you
> consider also making it available under MIT? I personally am hesitant
> to do anything with software under any L/GPL type license. I think
> others have a similar concern and that might be an issue if a number of
> the squeak websites used Aida. It's an honest question, I have no
> agenda here (other than a concern over L/GPL type licenses).
>
> - Stephen
>
> P.S. My opinion on L/GPL is that these licenses served a useful purpose
> and were a necessity to prevent Unix vendors from simply co-opting
> Stallman's work at a time when open source wasn't the norm. But today,
> the situation is much different. Open source is largely accepted and
> its value well understood. GPL and LGPL impose unnecessary restrictions
> on use and only serve to complicate matters. I can appreciate why
> Stallman is so stuck on GPL given his experiences, but I think he's sort
> of stuck in the past.
>
> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]

> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Hi Squeakers,
>
> I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
> community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
>
> Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
> and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
> how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
>
> That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
> Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
> technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
> Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
> intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
> will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
> Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in
> general.
>
> To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
> also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
> website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
> things such site needs to have those days.
>
> Janko
>
> Ken Causey wrote:
> > While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
> > some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
> > In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
> > down from leading the website team and would like to find a
> replacement.
> > He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
> > leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it
> is now
> > really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
> > immediate future at the very least.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 19:29 -0300, Germán Arduino wrote:
> >> I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting,
> complete and cool.
> >>
> >> Thanks you.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2008/3/13, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]

> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:

> >>> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the
> community!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ron Teitelbaum
> >>>
>
> >>> > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]

> <mailto:[hidden email]>> écrivait :

> >>> >
> >>> > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
> >>> > years,
> >>> > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars
> 31 I will
> >>> > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to
> maintain the
> >>> > >website, ftp and mailing list.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web
> appearence join
> >>> > the
> >>> > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Karl
> >>> >
> >>> > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> AIDA/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>
>
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>

--

Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Sebastian Sastre-2

RE: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by cedreek

Personnaly, I think there is room for both...
> especially if you consider the squeak site is *static* so I don't
> really see interest in having seaside used here (of course Pier could
> do it) as we could not say there are high level business processes in
> the squeak sites...).

But it should not. Because:

1) Seems that Squeak will have a non profit fundation. If so, to facilitate things for users who want to make online donations should have a HIGH priority. That’s highly interactive and important in many/money senses.

2)Other non static example could be *something* that can give a taste of what can be to interact with smalltalk code made online (of course that sand box has to be an independent on the fly reconstructible image for security reasons).

The navegable source that we may have and this smalltalk code interactive online sandbox will provide a glimpse of how is to interact with a smalltalk without downloading it.

If we do that we demolish the download barrier and nowadays to download could be a barrier higher than we may think.

Cheers,

Sebastian

Jason Rogers-4

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Janko Mivšek

For what it's worth... I have been on the Squeak WebTeam almost since
the beginning, mostly in a ghost-like capacity, for some time in the
lead position. I do what I can, when I can -- which is to say I don't
do much.

The site is running in a very old instance of SmallWiki, as this
thread has already shown. Personally, I would like to see it updated.
One of the main concerns we have had is about content backup. Our
current solution of snapshotting the image and tar-gzipping it has
historically been a poor (and very disk-space-expensive) solution.

I would like to have him give it a go, for a few different reasons,
mainly due to his enthusiasm. There's no need for the community to
polarize because he wants to use Aida instead of Seaside. They
compete with each other a bit, but competition is good!!! It fuels
innovation.

My 2 cents.

--
Jason

On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:23 PM, Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Squeakers,
>
> I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
> community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
>
> Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
> and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
> how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
>
> That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
> Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
> technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
> Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
> intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
> will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
> Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in general.
>
> To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
> also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
> website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
> things such site needs to have those days.
>
> Janko
>
>
> Ken Causey wrote:
> > While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
> > some others have missed the point. Karl is not fishing for comments.
> > In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
> > down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
> > He has not gotten any replies. He is now stating that he really is
> > leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
> > really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
> > immediate future at the very least.
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 19:29 -0300, Germán Arduino wrote:
> >> I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.
> >>
> >> Thanks you.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2008/3/13, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]>:
> >>> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Ron Teitelbaum
> >>>
>
>
>
> >>> > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]> écrivait :
> >>> >
> >>> > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
> >>> > years,
> >>> > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so Mars 31 I will
> >>> > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
> >>> > >website, ftp and mailing list.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
> >>> > the
> >>> > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Karl
> >>> >
> >>> > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> AIDA/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si
>
>

cedreek

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Sebastian Sastre-2

> But it should not. Because:

be static ? yes ok, but I still can see it as highly dynamic...

>
> 2)Other non static example could be *something* that can give a taste of what
> can be to interact with smalltalk code made online (of course that sand box has
> to be an independent on the fly reconstructible image for security reasons).
>
> The navegable source that we may have and this smalltalk code interactive online
> sandbox will provide a glimpse of how is to interact with a smalltalk without
> downloading it.

There are already some directions:
-WABrowser in seaside...
-Janko also plan something in this area (see Summer of Code)...
-and OB-Web is also particularly cool...

> If we do that we demolish the download barrier and nowadays to download could be a barrier higher than we may think.

I think navigable and sand-box images should be detached from the "web
site"... so doesn't really matter how the web site is done... but
definitely a good idea :)

For the squeak site, I see two alternatives:

-Seaside/Pier
and
-Aida/Scribo

And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
does it in Aida...

But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
right now It's not clear to me if people want :
(1) fresh and updated content + design, or
(2) the next gen web site...

As a start, I think (1) is enough especially if deadline is March 31 !

Cheers,

Cédrick

Brad Fuller-4

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:23 AM, cdrick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> For the squeak site, I see two alternatives:
>
> -Seaside/Pier
> and
> -Aida/Scribo
>
> And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
> does it in Aida...
>
> But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
> right now It's not clear to me if people want :
> (1) fresh and updated content + design, or
> (2) the next gen web site...

Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
other people on the team who understand this engine for support.

Ken Causey-3

Re: [squeak-dev] Re: I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Andreas.Raab

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 18:59 -0700, Andreas Raab wrote:

> Igor Stasenko wrote:
> > If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
> > stagnation and movement i choose movement.
>
> I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
> such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
> big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
> by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> - Andreas

Assuming Swazoo can live behind Apache as happily as Kom then it's as
little as a change of one digit in an apache configuration file and a
graceful restart. As leader of the box-admins team I will ensure that
whatever happens that at the very worst I can restore the current site
in a matter of a few minutes.

Ken

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Ken Causey-3

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Brad Fuller-4

Brad and Jason,

I want to explain a little bit about how this discussion got started.
You I believe will have noticed the emails from Karl yesterday where he
had gotten to the point of wanting the Board to appoint someone to
replace him as website team leader because he could not find a
replacement. I insisted that this was not a job for the Board and he
needed to give the community one more chance and make it as clear as
possible that there was no more time to wait around, someone needed to
step up now.

After that I was thinking about why no one had stepped up previously and
I had come to the conclusion that no one was interested in a job that
seemed like merely drudgework making minor changes to an existing site.
It occurred to me that many capable people might be interested if only
they could make a more significant change.

At the same time I had just logged onto #squeak and looked around at the
people in the channel and wondered if any of them seemed like likely
candidates to me and whether I could talk any of them into volunteering.
After looking around the only one I could think of was Janko Mivsek.
Janko is pretty active in wanting to promote Aida and it occured to me
that he might find the idea of building a new Squeak.org site using Aida
as very attractive and because it would be a visible representative of
Aida he would have an interest in maintaining the site over the long
term. So I asked him if he would be interested.

In the back of my mind (well maybe more in the foreground than that) I
wondered why no one from the Seaside community had stepped up and it
occurred to me that Janko stepping up might spur one of them to also do
so. That has yet to happen.

However please note that someone else has stepped up and that is Brian
Rice. Brian is not happy about having Janko involved and is interested
more in maintaining something more like the status quo although possibly
switching to a Seaside hosted website. I recommend that you talk to
Brian and see if you can work with him and what he has in mind.

Also of course one of you would be welcome to step forward. Jason was
the previous team leader of course so maybe he feels he has done his
stint. Your turn Brad?

Ken

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Janko Mivšek

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Brad Fuller-4

Hi Brad,

Brad Fuller wrote:

> Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
> other people on the team who understand this engine for support.

I don't think that so many technically knowledgeable people need to be
in WebTeam, but yes, there should exist at least so many people
knowledgeable on technology and willing to help if needed.

And from response to exactly that question on Aida mailing list you can
see that there are so many people willing to help. And Nicolas Petton,
core member of Aida dev team will surely join WebTeam. Then we are more
that strong enough, long-term!

Janko

--
Janko Mivšek
AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

Nicolas Petton

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Brad Fuller-4

Le vendredi 14 mars 2008 à 11:44 -0700, Brad Fuller a écrit :

> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:23 AM, cdrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > For the squeak site, I see two alternatives:
> >
> > -Seaside/Pier
> > and
> > -Aida/Scribo
> >
> > And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
> > does it in Aida...
> >
> > But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
> > right now It's not clear to me if people want :
> > (1) fresh and updated content + design, or
> > (2) the next gen web site...
>
>
> Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
> other people on the team who understand this engine for support.

Hi,

I'm not in the webteam, but I would be happy to join and help you there.
I know well Aida, I contribute to it and also to Aida/Scribo.

Cheers!

Nico
--
Nicolas Petton
http://nico.bioskop.fr
___
ooooooo
OOOOOOOOO
|Smalltalk|
OOOOOOOOO
ooooooo
\ /
[|]
--------------------------------
Ma clé PGP est disponible ici :
http://nico.bioskop.fr/pgp-key.html

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fstephany

Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

In reply to this post by Brad Fuller-4

Brad Fuller a écrit :

> On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:23 AM, cdrick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> For the squeak site, I see two alternatives:
>>
>> -Seaside/Pier
>> and
>> -Aida/Scribo
>>
>> And as Janko seems motivated to invest time... I wouldn't mind, he
>> does it in Aida...
>>
>> But maybe before choosing the tool, objectives should be clear ! And
>> right now It's not clear to me if people want :
>> (1) fresh and updated content + design, or
>> (2) the next gen web site...
>>
>
>
> Who, on the webteam, is also versed in Aida? We should have at least 3
> other people on the team who understand this engine for support.
>
>

Hi,

I'm not a Squeak's expert but i'll be pleased to help if needed for the
website.
I believe that a "fresh" design and a more clear website could be great
for Squeak reputation: the present website simply makes the potential
newcomers run away (i gave a talk about squeak last week - some people
never tried it because of the aspect of the website and of squeak itself)...

Cheers,

Francois

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