[squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

Thanks Ken.

I have read this thread thoroughly and I understand Brian's
perspective.  I don't have a strong leaning one way or the other,
though I didn't quite care for the tone of Brian's email (though I may
have read into it more than I should have -- which is always possible
in email -- so Sorry Brian if I inferred a tone that you weren't
implying).

While I don't claim any authority on the team or the site, here are
some of my concerns (off the top of my head):
- the site ought to be written in Smalltalk
- we need to lessen the burden of disk space, which would require a
lot of (too much?) development in the current site
    - base size of the image is a little hefty
    - if the image holds the data, we have to snapshot and copy the
image -- but if the content is external, we can back up the content
more frequently (with a much better compression rate than the image)
and back up the image much less frequently
- the content should be easily manipulated, without requiring editing
the image directly
- the current image is quite old (3.7 variant, I believe) and doesn't
take advantage of recent improvements in Squeak (FastSocket comes to
mind)


There are other concerns (eg. look and feel) that others are welcome
to chime in on.  FWIW: I like the look'n'feel of our site.

--
Jason


On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 3:55 PM, Ken Causey <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>>>> "Jason" == Jason Rogers <[hidden email]> writes:

Jason>     - if the image holds the data, we have to snapshot and copy the
Jason> image -- but if the content is external, we can back up the content
Jason> more frequently (with a much better compression rate than the image)
Jason> and back up the image much less frequently
Jason> - the content should be easily manipulated, without requiring editing
Jason> the image directly
Jason> - the current image is quite old (3.7 variant, I believe) and doesn't
Jason> take advantage of recent improvements in Squeak (FastSocket comes to
Jason> mind)

Can we use ImageSegments or Magma for this?  I mean, saving the whole image
works, but we certainly want to use modern technology now that it's available.

--
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<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Brad Fuller wrote:
Not that there aren't 3 other people. A number of people from the Aida
mailing list, including myself, have offered to contribute as able.

And who on the current webteam aren't able or capable to spend a minimum
amount of time to become acquainted with the technology (Aida, which is
arguably simpler than Seaside) when we would argue to anybody who is not
even acquainted with Smalltalk that it is well worth learning Smalltalk
to be able to use it. The same would apply to any Squeaker who wants to
contribute to the website regardless as to whether it is Seaside or Aida
of which neither is used in the current Squeak website and neither has
any member of the webteam stepped up to claim expertise in either
technology in order to persuade its adoption for use on the future
Squeak website. (To my understanding or memory.)

The number of qualified Seaside or Aida people is irrelevant. The number
of Seaside or Aida people willing to commit is.

Both are capable and qualified technologies on Smalltalk.

But what other volunteers do you see offering services that you are also
subjecting to such demands. Aida is not harder to learn or inferior to
Seaside in any way.

If someone energetically from the Seaside community made such an offer
would they also be resisted with as much adversity? I don't think so.

Currently the people volunteering time and work are Aida users. That is
not a bad thing, nor does it say anything negatively at all about
Seaside. Seaside is wonderful technology, but it isn't the only
technology. Nor the only Smalltalk/Squeak technology. Nor is Aida/Scribo
oh so Web 2.0 and Seaside so beyond.

I am sorry to seeming come out harsh here. But I think the negative
backlash against Aida/Scribo is unwarranted. It doesn't make Seaside
better. Seaside is well able to speak for itself, even alongside a
little bit of friendly competition from Aida/Scribo. People don't need
to put Aida/Scribo down in order to lift up Seaside.

In fact the work that Janko has put into Swazoo it is easy to run them
side by side.

And the Seaside advocates are no less passionate about Seaside than
Janko is about Aida. The fact is that currently no one from the Seaside
community has stepped up and said, we'll be happy to take care of this.
Not because they don't care. But they are busy people as are we all.

It just so happens that business interests and the interests of Squeak
happen to coincide for the Aida community. This is not a bad thing. Nor
is the result a bad thing.

Pros to my understanding for Aida are that Aida is far less resource
hungry. Aida is reasonably RESTful by its nature. And there are others.
Pros for Seaside is some of the magic that it can do. But is that
necessary to the task at hand? I don't think so. It isn't a requirement
for the current site. Aida is not a technology for static websites,
though it can probably handle that just fine. It does dynamic web sites
by nature. I don't know of anything off hand that Seaside can do that
Aida can't that is required or desired for the Squeak website. I maybe
wrong, but should there be such a deficiency, could we not allow Aida
the same opportunity to correct such deficiency?

My apologies to Janko if I speak for him out of hand. But if I am
correct, Janko is offering to provide a place for a migration of content
to Aida/Scribo independent and separate from the current implementation.
At such a point that the community deems it worthy to become the new
Squeak website, it could easily be migrated to the Squeak servers.

With this plan there is no risk or cost to the Squeak community outside
of that to the volunteers to assist Janko.

The most precious resource we have in the Squeak community are the
people willing to step up and do something. Here we have some one
willing to do so, and we are putting demands on them that we wouldn't
put on any other part of the community. Come on.

Unless you have something truly and honestly negative to say about
Aida/Scribo based on knowledge of Aida/Scribo and equally superior
knowledge about Seaside, then please be a little more generous about
somebody volunteering to help Squeak and the Squeak community.

> Brad from a later message:
> except I believe it's embarrassing not to use the language we so
> fervently and religiously  promote. If we didn't have a usable
> Smalltalk web engine, then I would understand. But, Seaside is
> available and it's great.  And if it's deficient in some way, we have
> the resources to change/add/delete/enhance in the community.

Absolutely, but Aida is also all Smalltalk, available and great. What
ways can you define it as deficient? I just don't see your justified
antagonism or adversarial attitude. Being Pro Seaside does not mean anti
Aida.

If I have any factual errors in this email my apologies. I just felt
impassioned to correct the anti-Aida attitude that I perceive (whether
correctly or not).

It is wrong to choose Seaside over Aida merely because it has a longer
mindshare in the Squeak community. That alone does not make it worthy or
unworthy. If Janko and the Aida community can not deliver on what they
say. Then hold them accountable. But only if another community steps up
and delivers on the goods desired. Until then, give whomever a break.

Ahhh!!!

Jimmie

Go Janko Go Go,
Janko be good :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0YUA3yTUss

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Magma isn't possible in the current image.

I have never used ImageSegments, so I don't know if it's even possible
in the image we have.

I don't much mind how the content is backed up as long as it's easy,
minimal in size, and able to be used in a restoration.

On Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 5:49 PM, Randal L. Schwartz
<[hidden email]> wrote:


--
Jason Rogers

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live;
yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life
which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of
the Son of God, who loved me, and gave
himself for me."
 Galatians 2:20

On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 22:25 +0100, karl wrote:
> I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few years,
> and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so  Mars 31 I will
> step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
> website, ftp and mailing list.
>
> I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join the
> webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
>
>
Could you please summarize what were your main duties being the
leader of the web team? What was the work you had most to do?
Is it html changes, image maintenance,...?

Now I now you did it a long time and must have collected a lot
of experience doing it. I read the whole thread about what
technology changes we are planning with squeak.org (And how much
more complex a new web site will be). But my assumption would be that
the main part of being webteam leader is much more boring: maintenance?

Even if I miss the point completely I'm still interested in the
border which divides the duty of a box admin and web team leader. How
did you work with the online images? How did you upgrade? How often
you needed to step in quickly because there was a problem with the
site? How did you debug problems (if there were any)?

thanks in advance,

Norbert

P.S.: I hope "...exiting areas..."  was just a typo ;)

Norbert Hartl wrote: Biggest day to day job is mailing list moderation.
Updating text and pictures on the site, ( wiki style).
Other stuff is linking to the right images, sources changes on the FTP.
Building and uploading bundles to the FTP.
Occasional VNC session on the image to implement a change to Smallwiki.
Fiddling with CSS and Smallwiki templates.

> Now I now you did it a long time and must have collected a lot
> of experience doing it. I read the whole thread about what
> technology changes we are planning with squeak.org (And how much
> more complex a new web site will be). But my assumption would be that
> the main part of being webteam leader is much more boring: maintenance?
>  
Yes, it's not a big job, if you can delegate tasks and projects. It's a
big job to migrate the site to another platform and get everything
going, but otherwise it mostly smooth sailing.
> Even if I miss the point completely I'm still interested in the
> border which divides the duty of a box admin and web team leader.
Ken have done  the work of keeping it running. I've just done the files
on FTP and the website.
> How did you work with the online images? How did you upgrade? How often
> you needed to step in quickly because there was a problem with the
> site? How did you debug problems (if there were any)?
>  
I just TightVNC to access the images which run a VNC server. We don't
upgrade. Most stuff done quickly is done by Ken. Debuggin is either
through VNC or by downloading the images and running them locally.
> thanks in advance,
>
> Norbert
>
> P.S.: I hope "...exiting areas..."  was just a typo ;)
>  
:-)
Karl
>
>
>