A couple of simple ergonomic adjustments
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Oh, I'll chime in - it doesn't work the way I do and it drives me nuts.
I often type most of a line, realize I need parens around part of it at the end of the line, put in the closing paren, then go back to put in the opening one - where it then insists on providing a matching closing one. In general, I often end up typing the closing quote/ paren first, then go back to put in the opening ones. In other words, I never code left to right - I code like an artist builds a picture - starting with a sketch and gradually filling in detail jumping around. eCompletion is a huge impediment when you are doing this as you spend more time deleting spurious matching quotes and parens than you do just typing stuff. I'm quite willing to agree that I might not be typical - but that's how I work - successive approximations of proper code rather than left to right perfection. -Todd Blanchard On Jul 16, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > 2007/7/16, Gary Chambers <[hidden email]>: >> Since we do business devlopment we like to keep things a bit more >> stable, >> though try to keep up with the main release. >> Besides, I find the eCompletion stuff a bit problematic (some of >> us use it >> though). > > What is problematic for you might be problematic for others too. > What is it? > > -- > Damien Cassou > |
Re: A couple of simple ergonomic adjustments
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In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3
+1
On Jul 15, 2007, at 5:39 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
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In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3
On Jul 16, 2007, at 4:57 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > 2007/7/12, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>: >> 1) When I browse senders, I get a browser with a bunch of methods. >> If I modify one of the methods, I DO NOT WANT IT TO VANISH FROM THE >> BROWSER ON SAVE! I keep having to go find the freakin' thing for >> every edit. STOP IT! > > > I you browser the senders and, after modification, your method is not > a sender anymore, it's normal that the method disappear. > |
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
2007/7/17, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>:
> Oh, I'll chime in - it doesn't work the way I do and it drives me nuts. > > I often type most of a line, realize I need parens around part of it > at the end of the line, put in the closing paren, then go back to put > in the opening one - where it then insists on providing a matching > closing one. In general, I often end up typing the closing quote/ > paren first, then go back to put in the opening ones. > > In other words, I never code left to right - I code like an artist > builds a picture - starting with a sketch and gradually filling in > detail jumping around. eCompletion is a huge impediment when you are > doing this as you spend more time deleting spurious matching quotes > and parens than you do just typing stuff. > > I'm quite willing to agree that I might not be typical - but that's > how I work - successive approximations of proper code rather than > left to right perfection. You can deactivate smart characters in the preferences. -- Damien Cassou |
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
2007/7/17, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>:
> On Jul 16, 2007, at 4:57 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > > > 2007/7/12, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>: > >> 1) When I browse senders, I get a browser with a bunch of methods. > >> If I modify one of the methods, I DO NOT WANT IT TO VANISH FROM THE > >> BROWSER ON SAVE! I keep having to go find the freakin' thing for > >> every edit. STOP IT! > > > > > > I you browser the senders and, after modification, your method is not > > a sender anymore, it's normal that the method disappear. > > > It is still a sender. Colin have just corrected this behavior. -- Damien Cassou |
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:32:32 -0700, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>
wrote: > I'm quite willing to agree that I might not be typical - but that's how > I work - successive approximations of proper code rather than left to > right perfection. I work uch the same way; I find the auto-parens to be a wash as far as time-saving. When they irritate me sufficiently, I turn them off. |
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2007/7/17, Blake <[hidden email]>:
> On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:32:32 -0700, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > > I'm quite willing to agree that I might not be typical - but that's how > > I work - successive approximations of proper code rather than left to > > right perfection. > > I work uch the same way; I find the auto-parens to be a wash as far as > time-saving. > > When they irritate me sufficiently, I turn them off. They irritated me too at the beginning. But I thought they can be useful so I tried to get used to. Now, I think I'm more efficient with them. When I want to enclose an expression, I first select the expression then write an open parenthesis. This writes the close parenthesis too. -- Damien Cassou |
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
On 17-Jul-07, at 12:32 PM, Todd Blanchard wrote: > Oh, I'll chime in - it doesn't work the way I do and it drives me > nuts. I agree. Autocompletion, like predictive typing, drives me nuts. If anyone puts it into any image I use the first thing I'll do is rip it out. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim An elephant is a mouse with an operating system. |
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In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3
>
> They irritated me too at the beginning. But I thought they > can be useful so I tried to get used to. Now, I think I'm > more efficient with them. > > When I want to enclose an expression, I first select the > expression then write an open parenthesis. This writes the > close parenthesis too. > -- > Damien Cassou Ditto, I love the auto parens. I much prefer to highlight and wrap expressions than manually opening, jumping to the end and closing. It's one of my favorite editor features. Ramon Leon http://onsmalltalk.com |
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2007/7/17, Ramon Leon <[hidden email]>:
> Ditto, I love the auto parens. I much prefer to highlight and wrap > expressions than manually opening, jumping to the end and closing. It's one > of my favorite editor features. I feel less alone suddenly. -- Damien Cassou |
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In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3
On Jul 17, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Damien Cassou wrote: > 2007/7/17, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>: > >> On Jul 16, 2007, at 4:57 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: >> >> > 2007/7/12, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>: >> >> 1) When I browse senders, I get a browser with a bunch of methods. >> >> If I modify one of the methods, I DO NOT WANT IT TO VANISH FROM >> THE >> >> BROWSER ON SAVE! I keep having to go find the freakin' thing for >> >> every edit. STOP IT! >> > >> > >> > I you browser the senders and, after modification, your method >> is not >> > a sender anymore, it's normal that the method disappear. >> > >> It is still a sender. >> > > Colin have just corrected this behavior. Yeah, I did a little work to enable the following behavior: The browser still updates the list whenever the system is changed. However, if some sender was modified so that it's no longer a sender, it remains in the list, but is displayed using the "strike through" text style. If it's modified again so that it's once again a sender, it will be displayed normally. On the other hand, Todd, if the method you save is still a sender and it disappears from the browser, that's not an ergonomic problem, it's a bug. I seem to remember fixing something like that a while back. What version of OB are you using? Colin |
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In reply to this post by Ramon Leon-5
On Jul 17, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Ramon Leon wrote: > Ditto, I love the auto parens. I much prefer to highlight and wrap > expressions than manually opening, jumping to the end and closing. > It's one > of my favorite editor features. What drives me nuts about them is that they impede the default behavior for typing when you already have a selection - deleting the selection and replacing it with what you type. If what you type happens to start with $(, you get very different behavior that if it starts with something else. Worse, we already had a easy way to do what you talk about above - cmd-shift-9. Colin |
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In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3
Damien Cassou <damien.cassou <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > 2007/7/17, Ramon Leon <ramon.leon <at> allresnet.com>: > > Ditto, I love the auto parens. I much prefer to highlight and wrap > > expressions than manually opening, jumping to the end and closing. > > It's one of my favorite editor features. > > I feel less alone suddenly. > Damien, you're certainly not alone as far as I'm concerned. I love Squeak, absolutely love it. But, I still think that it could learn from other IDEs. In particular, the autocompletion features in Eclipse for things like brackets, strings, comments and semicolons for Java are fantastic. I think that eCompletion (if that's what does the bracket/string/comment/etc completion) has a few flaws that make its usability a bit frustrating. For example, auto-wrapping a string is fine, but if I then typing a string character inside a comment (so, for instance, writing a string that contains the substring "I'm") it will automatically add another apostrophe, as if I were writing a string in-code. There are a number of foibles like that that ought to be relatively simple to fix for eCompletion, and would improve the experience considerably (in my opinion anyway). I know for a fact that I am much faster at writing code using a highlight- and-wrap approach to adding brackets, say, and I think people miss the point that one can use keys (ctrl-and arrow to move/select by word boundary, ctrl-and-home/end to select from the caret to the start/end of the line, etc) to control the selection highlighting, rather than having to move to the mouse, where they may find they slow down. I've also experimented before (in Eclipse, as Squeak's undo/redo behaviour is still pretty unpredictable) by undoing all my changes over a large undo history, then redoing them (holding down the redo key) and watching the way my code "grows" as I write it (it's quite fun to watch ;). Therefore I can comment that in my opinion I code in much the same way that Todd described earlier in this thread - and that I find that autocompletion and judicious keyboard skills actually aids and smooths this process, rather than hampers it. I also know I get incredibly frustrated when I use a co-worker's image where the autocompletion isn't there :) I also know that I don't visibly see my co-workers code any faster or more elegantly when I watch them code on their non-autocompleting images in front of me (even though autocompletion annoys them in much the way others have described here), at least not because of the lack of autocompletion. Finally, the other autocompletion of using ctrl-space with eCompletion I find far superior to the older alt-Q method. Apart from anything else using alt-Q always seems to give me the wrong option (because Roeltyper helps eCompletion know which option I really mean, I suppose). However, to follow up what Gary Chambers said elsewhere, we've found that eCompletion can leave Controller instances hanging around that seem to tie up memory and not get garbage collected. Not entirely sure why. My £1 worth (I ended up writing so much it wasn't just pennies :) S |
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In reply to this post by Colin Putney
How can I tell? The image is called squeak-dev-95. I got it from my Google Summer of Code Protege.
On Jul 17, 2007, at 3:38 PM, Colin Putney wrote:
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About alt-Q, i think it can be improved to sort matching selectors in
the way how they appear in current class hierarchy. So, if you typing 'foo', and current class having 'foob' method it will match first, and pressing once again, you will match 'fooa' method found in parent class. |
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
Yes, I remember now, that was very annoying. Also I think I had a few
problems with keyboard shortcuts (Ctrl-L to left-indent I think). > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Todd > Blanchard > Sent: 17 July 2007 8:33 PM > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > Subject: Re: Ergonomics - Rant > > > Oh, I'll chime in - it doesn't work the way I do and it drives me nuts. > > I often type most of a line, realize I need parens around part of it > at the end of the line, put in the closing paren, then go back to put > in the opening one - where it then insists on providing a matching > closing one. In general, I often end up typing the closing quote/ > paren first, then go back to put in the opening ones. > > In other words, I never code left to right - I code like an artist > builds a picture - starting with a sketch and gradually filling in > detail jumping around. eCompletion is a huge impediment when you are > doing this as you spend more time deleting spurious matching quotes > and parens than you do just typing stuff. > > I'm quite willing to agree that I might not be typical - but that's > how I work - successive approximations of proper code rather than > left to right perfection. > > -Todd Blanchard > > On Jul 16, 2007, at 10:58 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > > > 2007/7/16, Gary Chambers <[hidden email]>: > >> Since we do business devlopment we like to keep things a bit more > >> stable, > >> though try to keep up with the main release. > >> Besides, I find the eCompletion stuff a bit problematic (some of > >> us use it > >> though). > > > > What is problematic for you might be problematic for others too. > > What is it? > > > > -- > > Damien Cassou > > > > |
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
2007/7/18, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>:
> How can I tell? The image is called squeak-dev-95. I got it from my Google > Summer of Code Protege. It's a pretty old version as far as OB is concerned. -- Damien Cassou |
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In reply to this post by Ramon Leon-5
Ramon Leon a écrit :
>> They irritated me too at the beginning. But I thought they >> can be useful so I tried to get used to. Now, I think I'm >> more efficient with them. >> >> When I want to enclose an expression, I first select the >> expression then write an open parenthesis. This writes the >> close parenthesis too. >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> > > Ditto, I love the auto parens. I much prefer to highlight and wrap > expressions than manually opening, jumping to the end and closing. It's one > of my favorite editor features. > > For the auto-parens, alt+shift+9 (not handy in a french notebook)... is another shortcut to remember and I prefer delete the text before pressing ( or [ ... Actually, the problem I have is I don't know how to undo auto parens...is there a way to do ? Anyway, I've always noticed beginners/newcomers like this kind of options (eCompletion/auto-parens...) whereas experienced one don't... When you still hesitating with class names and methods, it's good to me (even if we could argue that you learn better by making errors...:) )... We have to keep both and the preference to switch should be more visible... there is a developer image preference category but maybe the list is a bit too long... Maybe something like "disable coding completion facilities" ... Cédrick |
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In reply to this post by Damien Cassou-3
This is fun I hate them. This is the first thing I disable when I use
a 3.9 image :) Stef On 17 juil. 07, at 23:49, Damien Cassou wrote: > 2007/7/17, Ramon Leon <[hidden email]>: >> Ditto, I love the auto parens. I much prefer to highlight and wrap >> expressions than manually opening, jumping to the end and >> closing. It's one >> of my favorite editor features. > > I feel less alone suddenly. > > -- > Damien Cassou > > |
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In reply to this post by Simon Kirk
Could you make a precise list of the possible improvements of
ecompletion? Stef On 18 juil. 07, at 01:24, Simon Kirk wrote: > Damien Cassou <damien.cassou <at> gmail.com> writes: > >> >> 2007/7/17, Ramon Leon <ramon.leon <at> allresnet.com>: >>> Ditto, I love the auto parens. I much prefer to highlight and wrap >>> expressions than manually opening, jumping to the end and closing. >>> It's one of my favorite editor features. >> >> I feel less alone suddenly. >> > > Damien, you're certainly not alone as far as I'm concerned. > > I love Squeak, absolutely love it. But, I still think that it could > learn > from other IDEs. > > In particular, the autocompletion features in Eclipse for things like > brackets, strings, comments and semicolons for Java are fantastic. > I think > that eCompletion (if that's what does the bracket/string/comment/etc > completion) has a few flaws that make its usability a bit frustrating. > > For example, auto-wrapping a string is fine, but if I then typing a > string > character inside a comment (so, for instance, writing a string that > contains the substring "I'm") it will automatically add another > apostrophe, > as if I were writing a string in-code. > > There are a number of foibles like that that ought to be relatively > simple > to fix for eCompletion, and would improve the experience > considerably (in > my opinion anyway). > > I know for a fact that I am much faster at writing code using a > highlight- > and-wrap approach to adding brackets, say, and I think people miss the > point that one can use keys (ctrl-and arrow to move/select by word > boundary, ctrl-and-home/end to select from the caret to the start/ > end of > the line, etc) to control the selection highlighting, rather than > having to > move to the mouse, where they may find they slow down. > > I've also experimented before (in Eclipse, as Squeak's undo/redo > behaviour > is still pretty unpredictable) by undoing all my changes over a > large undo > history, then redoing them (holding down the redo key) and watching > the way > my code "grows" as I write it (it's quite fun to watch ;). > > Therefore I can comment that in my opinion I code in much the same > way that > Todd described earlier in this thread - and that I find that > autocompletion > and judicious keyboard skills actually aids and smooths this process, > rather than hampers it. > > I also know I get incredibly frustrated when I use a co-worker's image > where the autocompletion isn't there :) I also know that I don't > visibly > see my co-workers code any faster or more elegantly when I watch > them code > on their non-autocompleting images in front of me (even though > autocompletion annoys them in much the way others have described > here), at > least not because of the lack of autocompletion. > > Finally, the other autocompletion of using ctrl-space with > eCompletion I > find far superior to the older alt-Q method. Apart from anything > else using > alt-Q always seems to give me the wrong option (because Roeltyper > helps > eCompletion know which option I really mean, I suppose). > > However, to follow up what Gary Chambers said elsewhere, we've > found that > eCompletion can leave Controller instances hanging around that seem > to tie > up memory and not get garbage collected. Not entirely sure why. > > My £1 worth (I ended up writing so much it wasn't just pennies :) > > S > > > > |
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