[ANN] new Seaside homepage
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Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
 
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On Jul 17, 2007, at 23:25 , Christofer Jennings wrote:
> I'm an utter nubee, but how about "SmallTalk, not <blah>blah</blah>" As a newbie you are forgiven the wrong spelling of "Smalltalk". But only once. ;) - Bert - _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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It's his Shift key that's wearing down for no good reason, so let him ;)
-Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:seaside- > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bert Freudenberg > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 2:45 PM > To: Seaside - general discussion > Subject: Re: [Seaside] [ANN] new Seaside homepage > > On Jul 17, 2007, at 23:25 , Christofer Jennings wrote: > > > I'm an utter nubee, but how about "SmallTalk, not <blah>blah</blah>" > > As a newbie you are forgiven the wrong spelling of "Smalltalk". But > only once. ;) > > - Bert - > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
Okay, I can't help myself ...
Come to Seaside and ride the [newest | gnarliest | hippest | coolest | freshest ] wave for web development Dude! Seaside is totally tubular! Totally! I'm Groovin' with Seaside, are you? Dale _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In words of the great Beavis: "Damn we're smooth".
-Boris -- +1.604.689.0322 DeepCove Labs Ltd. 4th floor 595 Howe Street Vancouver, Canada V6C 2T5 http://tinyurl.com/r7uw4 [hidden email] CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE This email is intended only for the persons named in the message header. Unless otherwise indicated, it contains information that is private and confidential. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender and delete the entire message including any attachments. Thank you. > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] [mailto:seaside- > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale Henrichs > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 3:04 PM > To: 'Seaside - general discussion' > Subject: RE: [Seaside] [ANN] new Seaside homepage > > Okay, I can't help myself ... > > Come to Seaside and ride the [newest | gnarliest | hippest | > coolest | freshest ] wave for web development > > Dude! Seaside is totally tubular! Totally! > > I'm Groovin' with Seaside, are you? > > Dale > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Dale
+1 for the "ride the wave" / "surf's up" theme which expresses the
fluidity of working in the pure-OO environment of Seaside which maps very well to the (surfable) web problem domain. On 7/17/07, Dale Henrichs <[hidden email]> wrote: > Okay, I can't help myself ... > > Come to Seaside and ride the [newest | gnarliest | hippest | > coolest | freshest ] wave for web development > > Dude! Seaside is totally tubular! Totally! > > I'm Groovin' with Seaside, are you? > > Dale > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > -- Chad Nantais http://myspace.com/chadnantais _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
Duly corrected.... No excuse. No rebuttal.
On 7/17/07, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote: > On Jul 17, 2007, at 23:25 , Christofer Jennings wrote: > > > I'm an utter nubee, but how about "SmallTalk, not <blah>blah</blah>" > > As a newbie you are forgiven the wrong spelling of "Smalltalk". But > only once. ;) > > - Bert - > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Sebastian Sastre-2
Hi there.
I just discovered Seaside after originally looking for .NET Frameworks that make our development live easier. So, in fact it was an inaccurate Google search term that brought me here. I also got stuck with seaside because I also was looking into E-Toys Squeak to teach one of my children some basic programming. Anyway I thought, while all of these instant "What is all of this"-questions are still up in my head, I thought I´d provide some feedback on how you could improve your product to attract more dev folks. First, a new user is unaware that there are different flavors of Smalltalk and that seaside needs to be ported from one flavor to the other. A little sentence that says something like "seaside is based on Smalltalk, a proven and robust language that is implemented by different vendors... to get seaside running you only need THIS image that has everything you need to get started". Of course the Squeak-GUI - and how it interfaces with the seaside web-frontend needs more explanation. I discovered that code errors in the web frontend, trigger some debug (or whatever it is) process in the Squeak GUI and the browser is waiting for some "proceed" action triggered from the GUI. The biggest question mark is Database connectivity. I use SubSonic (.NET) or ActiveRecord for my projects and I really like the approach. I read some threads about a PostgresMapper and Object Databases but it would be great to see day-to-day database samples that put all of that into context. There might be n-ways to do it but there should be an easy standard way of connecting to the most common databases and data that is already out there. No SQL please. Ah, and one thing... the counter example is great... but I hit the exact same sample in nearly all presentations about seaside. It would be great to have some more variety. Ok, so thanks for your time. I hope you don´t get me wrong, as it is not my intention to degrade Seaside. Just some ideas on how to improve. The framework itself looks very capable! Thanks, Elmar _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
MUCH BETTER!
Good work! Stef On 11 juil. 07, at 09:50, Philippe Marschall wrote: > Hi > > After too many delays the new Seaside homepage [1] has finally gone > online. Since we switched hosts it might take a moment until the DNS > update propagates to you. The first thing you'll notice is the updated > look for which we no longer have to excuse. We cleaned up the content > and added a lot of new stuff. Among others you'll find interactive > examples, feed aggregation Monticello commit logs and the answers to > often asked questions like 'What is the best Swiss cheese?'. Under the > hood we made a lot of technology upgrades. We finally run on Seaside > (2.8) and the Pier CMS with several plug-ins, we are also hosted at > Seaside-Hosting [2]. The only way to eat more dog food would be > running on SqueakNOS. > > The page is not yet fully finished (and probably never will be) but we > feel we're at the point where it's significantly better than the old > one. So if you have suggestions for improvements or want to help get > in contact with us. > > Cheers > Lukas > Philippe > > [1] http://www.seaside.st > [2] http://www.seasidehosting.st/ > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
Smalltalk Enterprise Aubergines Server (with fully INtegrated De.....)
is too much for the first page. It looks really like a joke or a hoax Stef On 11 juil. 07, at 09:50, Philippe Marschall wrote: > Hi > > After too many delays the new Seaside homepage [1] has finally gone > online. Since we switched hosts it might take a moment until the DNS > update propagates to you. The first thing you'll notice is the updated > look for which we no longer have to excuse. We cleaned up the content > and added a lot of new stuff. Among others you'll find interactive > examples, feed aggregation Monticello commit logs and the answers to > often asked questions like 'What is the best Swiss cheese?'. Under the > hood we made a lot of technology upgrades. We finally run on Seaside > (2.8) and the Pier CMS with several plug-ins, we are also hosted at > Seaside-Hosting [2]. The only way to eat more dog food would be > running on SqueakNOS. > > The page is not yet fully finished (and probably never will be) but we > feel we're at the point where it's significantly better than the old > one. So if you have suggestions for improvements or want to help get > in contact with us. > > Cheers > Lukas > Philippe > > [1] http://www.seaside.st > [2] http://www.seasidehosting.st/ > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Ramon Leon-5
Ramon Leon a écrit :
>> My final slogan for Seaside is: >> "Free your mind... Give your web a conscience!" >> > > "Free your mind", while nice sounding, is a direct quote from the movie the > Matrix, and so as a slogan sounds less than original and possibly a bit > cheesy. > > so maybe... Free your developper mind... Cédrick _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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I like your suggestion Cedrick. Is also one of my favorites. It reduces it's focus but gain strenght in the focused main target and still undestandable by all. All at the same time, so +1 for this. Cheers! Sebastian > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Cédrick Béler > Enviado el: Miércoles, 18 de Julio de 2007 07:39 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] [ANN] new Seaside homepage > > Ramon Leon a écrit : > >> My final slogan for Seaside is: > >> "Free your mind... Give your web a conscience!" > >> > > > > "Free your mind", while nice sounding, is a direct quote from the > > movie the Matrix, and so as a slogan sounds less than original and > > possibly a bit cheesy. > > > > > so maybe... > Free your developper mind... > > Cédrick > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Christofer Jennings-2
Too much technical for slogan. But great to be used as title of a technical article. It's instigating for the traditional web developer target. Cheers, Sebastian PS: I'm sure you mean Smalltalk (with t instead of T) > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Christofer Jennings > Enviado el: Martes, 17 de Julio de 2007 18:26 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] [ANN] new Seaside homepage > > I'm an utter nubee, but how about "SmallTalk, not <blah>blah</blah>" > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
Slogans aside, the biggest issue for me with the new site - and one
that could give quite a bad first impression - is something that can be seen here: http://stuartherring.net/seaside-profile.png 16.5 seconds to load - and that's with ADSL2+ That wouldn't be so bad if it were just images loading - but the images only take a couple of seconds and happen pretty much all at once after the page has finally displayed. The biggest killer is all the header objects - the page will not render at all until those are loaded, and the browser serializes the requests. That would be bad enough, but is compounded by the fact that because I'm in Australia, _every_ request has a 200 - 400ms roundtrip (a direct round trip to the other side of the world and back will take 133ms at the speed of light , not counting the overhead of the network equipment at each hop) There are 11 javascript and css objects in the header, so that means a _minimum_ of 2.2 seconds to have anything at all display, assuming perfect conditions and objects less than 4k each (so they'll fit in a single packet). The worst thing about that is it doesn't matter how fast my internet connection is, 56k or 100Mb, I'll still have to stare at a blank page for at least 2.2 seconds. Compare with the Rails page: http://stuartherring.net/ror-profile.png - still far from instant, but much better, and due to the fact that there's only one object included from the <head> section, actually has something on the screen in less than a second. Some things that could be done to improve it: * Merge all the CSS into a single file. * Merge all the javascript into a single file. * Maybe load the javascript from the <body>? I don't know whether or not that's a good idea, but the RoR site does it, and it certainly improves the time between blank page and first rendered content. * Enable mod_gzip on Apache - that should take care of the huge size of the javascript. I believe that if those can be done, I should be able to go to seaside.st with an empty cache and see something in no more than half a second, with page completely loading in around 5 seconds. Another comparison - seaside.st: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?url=http://www.seaside.st/ rubyonrails.com: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?url=http://www.rubyonrails.com/ These issues will also largely affect any out-of-the-box Seaside and Scriptaculous deployments , so if you do manage to improve it, it would probably be worthwhile adding a FAQ on how to fly to the Seaside, rather than walking ;) Regards, Stuart. On 7/11/07, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi > > After too many delays the new Seaside homepage [1] has finally gone > online. Since we switched hosts it might take a moment until the DNS > update propagates to you. The first thing you'll notice is the updated > look for which we no longer have to excuse. We cleaned up the content > and added a lot of new stuff. Among others you'll find interactive > examples, feed aggregation Monticello commit logs and the answers to > often asked questions like 'What is the best Swiss cheese?'. Under the > hood we made a lot of technology upgrades. We finally run on Seaside > (2.8) and the Pier CMS with several plug-ins, we are also hosted at > Seaside-Hosting [2]. The only way to eat more dog food would be > running on SqueakNOS. > > The page is not yet fully finished (and probably never will be) but we > feel we're at the point where it's significantly better than the old > one. So if you have suggestions for improvements or want to help get > in contact with us. > > Cheers > Lukas > Philippe > > [1] http://www.seaside.st > [2] http://www.seasidehosting.st/ > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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I felt the speed thing too. I'm in southern California with a cable
modem and seaside.st feels a little slow. Oddly, the websiteoptimization tests showed seaside as faster (3.81 on a T1) than rubynrails (5.21 on a T1). Clearing my cache and reloading in firefox got seaside in 7.89 seconds and got rubyonrails in 1.04 seconds. Reloading got seaside in 1.28 seconds and rubyonrails in 0.21 seconds. ,chris On 7/18/07, Stuart Herring <[hidden email]> wrote: > Slogans aside, the biggest issue for me with the new site - and one > that could give quite a bad first impression - is something that can > be seen here: http://stuartherring.net/seaside-profile.png > > 16.5 seconds to load - and that's with ADSL2+ > > That wouldn't be so bad if it were just images loading - but the > images only take a couple of seconds and happen pretty much all at > once after the page has finally displayed. The biggest killer is all > the header objects - the page will not render at all until those are > loaded, and the browser serializes the requests. > That would be bad enough, but is compounded by the fact that because > I'm in Australia, _every_ request has a 200 - 400ms roundtrip (a > direct round trip to the other side of the world and back will take > 133ms at the speed of light , not counting the overhead of the network > equipment at each hop) > There are 11 javascript and css objects in the header, so that means a > _minimum_ of 2.2 seconds to have anything at all display, assuming > perfect conditions and objects less than 4k each (so they'll fit in a > single packet). The worst thing about that is it doesn't matter how > fast my internet connection is, 56k or 100Mb, I'll still have to stare > at a blank page for at least 2.2 seconds. > > Compare with the Rails page: http://stuartherring.net/ror-profile.png > - still far from instant, but much better, and due to the fact that > there's only one object included from the <head> section, actually has > something on the screen in less than a second. > > Some things that could be done to improve it: > * Merge all the CSS into a single file. > * Merge all the javascript into a single file. > * Maybe load the javascript from the <body>? I don't know whether or > not that's a good idea, but the RoR site does it, and it certainly > improves the time between blank page and first rendered content. > * Enable mod_gzip on Apache - that should take care of the huge size > of the javascript. > > I believe that if those can be done, I should be able to go to > seaside.st with an empty cache and see something in no more than half > a second, with page completely loading in around 5 seconds. > > Another comparison - > seaside.st: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?url=http://www.seaside.st/ > rubyonrails.com: > http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?url=http://www.rubyonrails.com/ > > These issues will also largely affect any out-of-the-box Seaside and > Scriptaculous deployments , so if you do manage to improve it, it > would probably be worthwhile adding a FAQ on how to fly to the > Seaside, rather than walking ;) > > Regards, > Stuart. > > On 7/11/07, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi > > > > After too many delays the new Seaside homepage [1] has finally gone > > online. Since we switched hosts it might take a moment until the DNS > > update propagates to you. The first thing you'll notice is the updated > > look for which we no longer have to excuse. We cleaned up the content > > and added a lot of new stuff. Among others you'll find interactive > > examples, feed aggregation Monticello commit logs and the answers to > > often asked questions like 'What is the best Swiss cheese?'. Under the > > hood we made a lot of technology upgrades. We finally run on Seaside > > (2.8) and the Pier CMS with several plug-ins, we are also hosted at > > Seaside-Hosting [2]. The only way to eat more dog food would be > > running on SqueakNOS. > > > > The page is not yet fully finished (and probably never will be) but we > > feel we're at the point where it's significantly better than the old > > one. So if you have suggestions for improvements or want to help get > > in contact with us. > > > > Cheers > > Lukas > > Philippe > > > > [1] http://www.seaside.st > > [2] http://www.seasidehosting.st/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: Feedback from an experienced Java-C# Guy but absolute Smalltalk/Seaside/Squeak Newbie
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In reply to this post by elni
2007/7/18, elni <[hidden email]>:
> Hi there. > > I just discovered Seaside after originally looking for .NET Frameworks that > make our development live easier. So, in fact it was an inaccurate Google > search term that brought me here. I also got stuck with seaside because I > also was looking into E-Toys Squeak to teach one of my children some basic > programming. Anyway I thought, while all of these instant "What is all of > this"-questions are still up in my head, I thought I´d provide some feedback > on how you could improve your product to attract more dev folks. > > First, a new user is unaware that there are different flavors of Smalltalk > and that seaside needs to be ported from one flavor to the other. A little > sentence that says something like "seaside is based on Smalltalk, a proven > and robust language that is implemented by different vendors... to get > seaside running you only need THIS image that has everything you need to get > started". > > Of course the Squeak-GUI - and how it interfaces with the seaside > web-frontend needs more explanation. I discovered that code errors in the > web frontend, trigger some debug (or whatever it is) process in the Squeak > GUI and the browser is waiting for some "proceed" action triggered from the > GUI. > > The biggest question mark is Database connectivity. I use SubSonic (.NET) or > ActiveRecord for my projects and I really like the approach. I read some > threads about a PostgresMapper and Object Databases but it would be great to > see day-to-day database samples that put all of that into context. There > might be n-ways to do it but there should be an easy standard way of > connecting to the most common databases and data that is already out there. > No SQL please. > > Ah, and one thing... the counter example is great... but I hit the exact > same sample in nearly all presentations about seaside. It would be great to > have some more variety. > > Ok, so thanks for your time. I hope you don´t get me wrong, as it is not my > intention to degrade Seaside. Just some ideas on how to improve. The > framework itself looks very capable! you have any ideas for more examples like counter, bring'em on. Cheers Philippe _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Stuart Herring-2
Thanks for profiling. Well have a look at it. We also noticed an
usually high load time for the front page. We suspect that the feed aggregator plugin contributes to this. Philippe 2007/7/18, Stuart Herring <[hidden email]>: > Slogans aside, the biggest issue for me with the new site - and one > that could give quite a bad first impression - is something that can > be seen here: http://stuartherring.net/seaside-profile.png > > 16.5 seconds to load - and that's with ADSL2+ > > That wouldn't be so bad if it were just images loading - but the > images only take a couple of seconds and happen pretty much all at > once after the page has finally displayed. The biggest killer is all > the header objects - the page will not render at all until those are > loaded, and the browser serializes the requests. > That would be bad enough, but is compounded by the fact that because > I'm in Australia, _every_ request has a 200 - 400ms roundtrip (a > direct round trip to the other side of the world and back will take > 133ms at the speed of light , not counting the overhead of the network > equipment at each hop) > There are 11 javascript and css objects in the header, so that means a > _minimum_ of 2.2 seconds to have anything at all display, assuming > perfect conditions and objects less than 4k each (so they'll fit in a > single packet). The worst thing about that is it doesn't matter how > fast my internet connection is, 56k or 100Mb, I'll still have to stare > at a blank page for at least 2.2 seconds. > > Compare with the Rails page: http://stuartherring.net/ror-profile.png > - still far from instant, but much better, and due to the fact that > there's only one object included from the <head> section, actually has > something on the screen in less than a second. > > Some things that could be done to improve it: > * Merge all the CSS into a single file. > * Merge all the javascript into a single file. > * Maybe load the javascript from the <body>? I don't know whether or > not that's a good idea, but the RoR site does it, and it certainly > improves the time between blank page and first rendered content. > * Enable mod_gzip on Apache - that should take care of the huge size > of the javascript. > > I believe that if those can be done, I should be able to go to > seaside.st with an empty cache and see something in no more than half > a second, with page completely loading in around 5 seconds. > > Another comparison - > seaside.st: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?url=http://www.seaside.st/ > rubyonrails.com: > http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?url=http://www.rubyonrails.com/ > > These issues will also largely affect any out-of-the-box Seaside and > Scriptaculous deployments , so if you do manage to improve it, it > would probably be worthwhile adding a FAQ on how to fly to the > Seaside, rather than walking ;) > > Regards, > Stuart. > > On 7/11/07, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi > > > > After too many delays the new Seaside homepage [1] has finally gone > > online. Since we switched hosts it might take a moment until the DNS > > update propagates to you. The first thing you'll notice is the updated > > look for which we no longer have to excuse. We cleaned up the content > > and added a lot of new stuff. Among others you'll find interactive > > examples, feed aggregation Monticello commit logs and the answers to > > often asked questions like 'What is the best Swiss cheese?'. Under the > > hood we made a lot of technology upgrades. We finally run on Seaside > > (2.8) and the Pier CMS with several plug-ins, we are also hosted at > > Seaside-Hosting [2]. The only way to eat more dog food would be > > running on SqueakNOS. > > > > The page is not yet fully finished (and probably never will be) but we > > feel we're at the point where it's significantly better than the old > > one. So if you have suggestions for improvements or want to help get > > in contact with us. > > > > Cheers > > Lukas > > Philippe > > > > [1] http://www.seaside.st > > [2] http://www.seasidehosting.st/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
>Thanks for your feedback. I can agree with most of your points. If you have any ideas for more examples like counter, bring'em on.
Sure Philippe. Ok, so everything is done for with purpose, right? The purpose of the counter sample was to show how clever seaside deals with states and that it is all there for free. Great. But why Rails (and others) are doing this 'blog in 5 minutes' thing is to show people how easy it is to build real world apps with it. People might find it easier and more interesting if they know that they will have a working application afterwards that they can use right away. Maybe something they already experienced as a user or even already developed in a different framework. This could be a chat, another blog, a localized mini cms-system or something that links together existing sources via webservices a la "look for a product at amazon and see if it´s available on Flickr". The main reason to look at Seaside will be to "get things done better/cheaper/faster" and having screendemos that actually prove this will very likely attract more people. As I said, I think it is very important to have a complete bundle that also includes an ActiveRecord-Style approach (or maybe even something superior, I dunno). Something else that would really set Seaside apart from Rails is if it could handle multiple existing Databases. Maybe I ask a bit too much here but I am just writing down my first ideas. Elmar _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
RE: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Stuart Herring-2
Good profiling Stuart. I see my Seaside app quite delayed to load
(noticeable even in LAN) and same load scenario of yours. I don't know yet how I will optimize that. For sure I'm interested in to know how to deal with this bottlenecks problems. I'm just letting that for a later stage of the development. I saw the video that Danil reference about the YouTube guys about iterating the bottlenecks of their system and I can't wait to see what can we do in that regard. I think one critical part is the divide the load by user (or groups of users). DabbleDB I think makes use of that load balance principle using an image for each few users. cheers, Sebastian Sastre > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En nombre > de Stuart Herring > Enviado el: Miércoles, 18 de Julio de 2007 11:05 > Para: Seaside - general discussion > Asunto: Re: [Seaside] [ANN] new Seaside homepage > > Slogans aside, the biggest issue for me with the new site - > and one that could give quite a bad first impression - is > something that can be seen here: > http://stuartherring.net/seaside-profile.png > > 16.5 seconds to load - and that's with ADSL2+ > > That wouldn't be so bad if it were just images loading - but > the images only take a couple of seconds and happen pretty > much all at once after the page has finally displayed. The > biggest killer is all the header objects - the page will not > render at all until those are loaded, and the browser > serializes the requests. > That would be bad enough, but is compounded by the fact that > because I'm in Australia, _every_ request has a 200 - 400ms > roundtrip (a direct round trip to the other side of the world > and back will take 133ms at the speed of light , not counting > the overhead of the network equipment at each hop) There are > 11 javascript and css objects in the header, so that means a > _minimum_ of 2.2 seconds to have anything at all display, > assuming perfect conditions and objects less than 4k each (so > they'll fit in a single packet). The worst thing about that > is it doesn't matter how fast my internet connection is, 56k > or 100Mb, I'll still have to stare at a blank page for at > least 2.2 seconds. > > Compare with the Rails page: http://stuartherring.net/ror-profile.png > - still far from instant, but much better, and due to the > fact that there's only one object included from the <head> > section, actually has something on the screen in less than a second. > > Some things that could be done to improve it: > * Merge all the CSS into a single file. > * Merge all the javascript into a single file. > * Maybe load the javascript from the <body>? I don't know > whether or not that's a good idea, but the RoR site does it, > and it certainly improves the time between blank page and > first rendered content. > * Enable mod_gzip on Apache - that should take care of the > huge size of the javascript. > > I believe that if those can be done, I should be able to go > to seaside.st with an empty cache and see something in no > more than half a second, with page completely loading in > around 5 seconds. > > Another comparison - > seaside.st: > http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?ur > rubyonrails.com: > http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/wso.php?ur l=http://www.rubyonrails.com/ > > These issues will also largely affect any out-of-the-box > Seaside and Scriptaculous deployments , so if you do manage > to improve it, it would probably be worthwhile adding a FAQ > on how to fly to the Seaside, rather than walking ;) > > Regards, > Stuart. > > On 7/11/07, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi > > > > After too many delays the new Seaside homepage [1] has finally gone > > online. Since we switched hosts it might take a moment > until the DNS > > update propagates to you. The first thing you'll notice is > the updated > > look for which we no longer have to excuse. We cleaned up > the content > > and added a lot of new stuff. Among others you'll find interactive > > examples, feed aggregation Monticello commit logs and the > answers to > > often asked questions like 'What is the best Swiss > cheese?'. Under the > > hood we made a lot of technology upgrades. We finally run on Seaside > > (2.8) and the Pier CMS with several plug-ins, we are also hosted at > > Seaside-Hosting [2]. The only way to eat more dog food would be > > running on SqueakNOS. > > > > The page is not yet fully finished (and probably never will > be) but we > > feel we're at the point where it's significantly better > than the old > > one. So if you have suggestions for improvements or want to > help get > > in contact with us. > > > > Cheers > > Lukas > > Philippe > > > > [1] http://www.seaside.st > > [2] http://www.seasidehosting.st/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Seaside mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside > > > _______________________________________________ > Seaside mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: was Feedback -> sample ideas
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In reply to this post by elni
2007/7/18, elni <[hidden email]>:
> >Thanks for your feedback. I can agree with most of your points. If you have any ideas for more examples like counter, bring'em on. > > Sure Philippe. Ok, so everything is done for with purpose, right? The purpose of the counter sample was to show how clever seaside deals with states and that it is all there for free. Great. But why Rails (and others) are doing this 'blog in 5 minutes' thing is to show people how easy it is to build real world apps with it. People might find it easier and more interesting if they know that they will have a working application afterwards that they can use right away. Maybe something they already experienced as a user or even already developed in a different framework. > > This could be a chat, another blog, a localized mini cms-system or something that links together existing sources via webservices a la "look for a product at amazon and see if it´s available on Flickr". > > The main reason to look at Seaside will be to "get things done better/cheaper/faster" and having screendemos that actually prove this will very likely attract more people. As I said, I think it is very important to have a complete bundle that also includes an ActiveRecord-Style approach (or maybe even something superior, I dunno). > > Something else that would really set Seaside apart from Rails is if it could handle multiple existing Databases. Maybe I ask a bit too much here but I am just writing down my first ideas. > months. Especially since there are already at least two O/R mappers around and there is no consensus whether RDBS or OODBS are the way to go. But I can get changes to the homepage done, write examples and maybe even get a package on the homepage that besides an up to date image also includes a VM. We certainly could also link to tutorials for GLROP or Magma. Philippe _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
Re: [ANN] new Seaside homepage
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In reply to this post by Martial Boniou
Martial Boniou wrote:
> - Is the 'manage' section useful to display? I use Pier too and what I > did for my personal website is to add a special 'hidden' page for > administration in dispatcher pointing to the same PRKernel instance but > displaying the 'manage' section (using a configuration new variable to > say whether the 'manage' section are displayed or not). So when the user > access to seaside via: > > seaside.st = it displays the page without 'manage' > > And when he writes: > > seaside.st/secretadminpageentry = it goes with the login section and all > the admin things. > > It's just suggestion. It's a very nice work. It's far better than the > old pages. I hope squeak.org/squeakfoundation sites will benefit this > kind of new design one day. What I do in my site is I have the menu bar (the default CSS puts it across the top of the page) and one of the options is "login". If you are logged in then you get a logout button instead and some extra buttons depending on what rights you have. Only I have the manage button at this time. :) _______________________________________________ Seaside mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/seaside |
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