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changing default theme to DarkTheme

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EstebanLM

changing default theme to DarkTheme

Hello guys,

I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )

Those which still do not like it can still execute

Pharo3Theme beCurrent.

(in their startup actions, if you want)

And everything will be as before.

Esteban

Denis Kudriashov

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme.

But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.

Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.

Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it.

2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:

Hello guys,

I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )

Those which still do not like it can still execute

Pharo3Theme beCurrent.

(in their startup actions, if you want)

And everything will be as before.

Esteban

EstebanLM

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:10, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme.

you can put a preference to switch it back.

But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.

no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.

Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.

no, this is not how it works.

We do not vote: most of the decisions are made by consensus and there is also the board who takes some decisions without asking because we pursuit an objective: for example we did not ask anybody if they wanted a new browser, we (the board) decided that Nautilus was not good enough and then we pushed for Calypso.

Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it.

yep, that’s the idea… nothing is irreversible :)

Esteban

2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Hello guys,

I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )

Those which still do not like it can still execute

Pharo3Theme beCurrent.

(in their startup actions, if you want)

And everything will be as before.

Esteban

EstebanLM

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:27, Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:10, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme.

you can put a preference to switch it back.

But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.

no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.

Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.

no, this is not how it works.
We do not vote: most of the decisions are made by consensus and there is also the board who takes some decisions without asking because we pursuit an objective: for example we did not ask anybody if they wanted a new browser, we (the board) decided that Nautilus was not good enough and then we pushed for Calypso.

btw… this does not means board decisions are irreversible: everybody can discus it before, during and after changes happens. If we find we were wrong, we can always revert.

Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it.

yep, that’s the idea… nothing is irreversible :)

Esteban

2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Hello guys,

I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )

Those which still do not like it can still execute

Pharo3Theme beCurrent.

(in their startup actions, if you want)

And everything will be as before.

Esteban

Denis Kudriashov

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:

Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.

no, this is not how it works.

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic.

But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

EstebanLM

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

On 14 Apr 2017, at 13:44, Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.

no, this is not how it works.

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic.
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

yeah, but is impossible to satisfy everybody… specially in non-technical stuff :)

Esteban

Denis Kudriashov

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:

But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.

no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.

Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval with white label. It is almost unreadable.

Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.

Denis Kudriashov

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

2017-04-14 13:46 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:

But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

yeah, but is impossible to satisfy everybody… specially in non-technical stuff :)

It is important to satisfy majority.

And it will be nice for people like me to be sure that we are special :) Now I am sure that I am average person and most of people do not like dark :)

Andrei Chis

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov

On Apr 14, 2017 14:11, "Denis Kudriashov" <[hidden email]> wrote:

Maybe I am alone who do not like the dark theme.

I'm also a fan of the white team. Can't really use the dark one.

Cheers,

Andrei

But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.

Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.

Anyway settings are recovered at image startup. So I can live with it.

2017-04-14 9:09 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Hello guys,

I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )

Those which still do not like it can still execute

Pharo3Theme beCurrent.

(in their startup actions, if you want)

And everything will be as before.

Esteban

Pavel Krivanek-3

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov

2017-04-14 13:48 GMT+02:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.

no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.

Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval with white label. It is almost unreadable.

Let's be constructive :-)

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19935/Versionner-tags-are-unreadable-in-the-dark-theme

Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.

Stephane Ducasse-3

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

tx pavel!

We need a look that we can identify pharo 60 as pharo 60 :)

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 13:48 GMT+02:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
But to me it is too late for such change. I am sure there are UI widgets/projects which looks horrible in dark. And people probably test them in pharo 6 before this change. So they will be very surprised.

no, dark theme is around since 3 years and is very depurated. In fact, many people already use it as they preferred theme.

Just open any project with Versioner. Symbolic versions are in green oval with white label. It is almost unreadable.

Let's be constructive :-)
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/19935/Versionner-tags-are-unreadable-in-the-dark-theme

Do you remember how many times Steph complains about style of current white theme? I am sure he not deeply look into dark.

hernanmd

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov

2017-04-14 8:44 GMT-03:00 Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]>:

2017-04-14 13:27 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
Also I am really wondering that this decision was not publicly discussed. We should vote for such kind of changes.

no, this is not how it works.

yes, it is how it could work :)

Current approach is not bad for technical choices because it is difficult to make everybody evolved in particular technical topic.
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

I would forget about it. I stopped waiting for votes long time ago in this community. Also I decided to stop contributing to external projects (including reporting bugs) because who knows which tool (browser, morphic, etc) the board would like to add/remove tomorrow. I will not invest my time fixing tools who knows what's the plan on them.

The best you can do is to work in the dark and adapt your stuff with each new Pharo version.

Of course anyone with enough time/money could fork a new more democratic Pharo ;)

Hernán

kilon.alios

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by Denis Kudriashov

Thats the illusion of people who complain , because they are so vocal , they think they are a majority when actually they are a small minority.

I call this "The tyranny of noise". Its in our nature to focus on the noise and ignore the silence.

I am a huge supporter of Dark Themes, they are friendlier to the health of the eye and much friendlier to the environment too. Their objective value cannot be questioned. But as always personal taste plays a role here.

Whether people prefer more light to dark themes, is difficult to say. Even though most apps come with default light themes, two common patterns emerge.

a) White themes are almost non existent (I cannot even recall another app besides Pharo that has a white theme)

b) Dark themes are at worst the second preferred choice.

I am definitely in favour of "dictatorship/oligarchy" regimes for the leading of open source projects. Democracy is the best political system but it has two huge weakness. It requires the active participation of its members and a high education, hence why it rarely works well.

In any case , its a moot point to make in such a customisable environment as Pharo.

I am in the middle by the way for those that wonder, I use neither Dark (but I really like it) or White (my eyes hate it with a vengeance) theme and I have made my own custom Blue theme which makes me an extremely tiny minority :D

But I was raised with blue and green themes (I hate green themes) so maybe I am biased.

In any case a huge thank you to Esteban for dark theme has made coding in Pharo far easier for me :)

On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 2:55 PM Denis Kudriashov <[hidden email]> wrote:

2017-04-14 13:46 GMT+02:00 Esteban Lorenzano <[hidden email]>:
But look&feel is different. You just open Pharo and have impression is it looks good or not. Voting can work here.

yeah, but is impossible to satisfy everybody… specially in non-technical stuff :)

It is important to satisfy majority.
And it will be nice for people like me to be sure that we are special :) Now I am sure that I am average person and most of people do not like dark :)

nacho

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Why not have a "mini-config" sort of splash screen (as Squeak now does) and let the user select?
In that mini-config we can proudly announce 10 timesRepeat: [ 'Pharo 6 is out ! (and it is great)']

cheers
Nacho

Nacho Smalltalker apprentice. Buenos Aires, Argentina.

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
> I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
> This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )

No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7,
and then have the discussions, but not for 6.

Stephan

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by kilon.alios

On 15/04/17 10:19, Dimitris Chloupis wrote:
> I am a huge supporter of Dark Themes, they are friendlier to the health
> of the eye and much friendlier to the environment too. Their objective
> value cannot be questioned. But as always personal taste plays a role here.

All science shows otherwise.

Stephan

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3

> On 15 Apr 2017, at 13:41, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 14/04/17 09:09, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>> I wanted to let you know that we talked at the board and we want to make the DarkTheme a default for Pharo 6.0.
>> This is just because we want to have a visual immediate reference of changing things (yeah, marketing ;) )
>
>
> No. Please revert that decision. It is too late. You can try that for 7, and then have the discussions, but not for 6.

Why would it be too late ?

Many, many people (myself included) have used the current Dark Theme for years, it just works (modulo some minor problems).

It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.

Sven

CyrilFerlicot

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3

Can people just explain to my why we have so many big threads each time
a default settings is changed?

I understand that some settings need a certain default value when it
come for discover-ability of a feature. But why so many noise for
feature that are totally taste dependent? The principle of settings is
that some people will like the default one and some will not like it.
That's the point.

Why are people so afraid of settings? I have the impression that Pharo
has no setting system each time I see those threads.

Neverless, I agree that we should have a way at the first launch of
Pharo on a computer to let the user define some common settings as
Squeak does. It's a really cool feature of most IDEs (like Intellij for
example). Probably too late for Pharo 6, but not for Pharo 7.

I am just a little tired to see this many noise for things like that.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

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Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 15/04/17 13:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
> It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.

Mostly because it is not a matter of taste. For most people (there are
several eye problems where it is not the case), a dark on light theme is
better. The exceptions are well known (keeping night vision, photo/video
processing, a room that is too dark), but there is no reason at all to
make a dark theme default

Stephan

CyrilFerlicot

Re: changing default theme to DarkTheme

Le 15/04/2017 à 14:23, Stephan Eggermont a écrit :

> On 15/04/17 13:48, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> It is a matter of taste, of course, but after 5 major releases with
>> White Themes, an alternative is more than welcome.
>
> Mostly because it is not a matter of taste. For most people (there are
> several eye problems where it is not the case), a dark on light theme is
> better. The exceptions are well known (keeping night vision, photo/video
> processing, a room that is too dark), but there is no reason at all to
> make a dark theme default
>
> Stephan
>
>

It's even better. With it as default more people will report issues.

--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

http://www.synectique.eu
2 rue Jacques Prévert 01,
59650 Villeneuve d'ascq France

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