[squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Raymond Asselin
> Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:30 PM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31
>
> Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]> écrivait :
>
> >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
> years,
> >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so  Mars 31 I will
> >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
> >website, ftp and mailing list.
> >
> >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
> the
> >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
> >
> >
> >Karl
>
> You did a very good job thank you very much for your time

> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
>
>
>  Ron Teitelbaum
>
>
>  > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
>  > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Raymond Asselin
>  > Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2008 5:30 PM
>  > To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>  > Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] I'm stepping down as WebTeam Leader Mars 31
>  >
>  > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]> écrivait :
>  >
>  > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
>  > years,
>  > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so  Mars 31 I will
>  > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
>  > >website, ftp and mailing list.
>  > >
>  > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
>  > the
>  > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >Karl
>  >
>  > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
>
>
>
>

> While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
> some others have missed the point.  Karl is not fishing for comments.
> In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
> down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
> He has not gotten any replies.  He is now stating that he really is
> leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
> really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
> immediate future at the very least.
>
> Ken
>
>
> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 19:29 -0300, Germán Arduino wrote:
>> I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting, complete and cool.
>>
>> Thanks you.
>>
>>
>> 2008/3/13, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]>:
>>> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the community!
>>>
>>>
>>>  Ron Teitelbaum
>>>

>>>  > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]> écrivait :
>>>  >
>>>  > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
>>>  > years,
>>>  > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so  Mars 31 I will
>>>  > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to maintain the
>>>  > >website, ftp and mailing list.
>>>  > >
>>>  > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
>>>  > the
>>>  > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
>>>  > >
>>>  > >
>>>  > >Karl
>>>  >
>>>  > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time

> Hi Squeakers,
>
> I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
> community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
>
> Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building  
> up
> and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some  
> experience
> how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).

> That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
> Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
> technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
> Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently  
> in
> intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak  
> website
> will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
> Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in  
> general.

> Ken Causey wrote:
>> While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
>> some others have missed the point.  Karl is not fishing for comments.
>> In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
>> down from leading the website team and would like to find a  
>> replacement.
>> He has not gotten any replies.  He is now stating that he really is
>> leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is  
>> now
>> really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
>> immediate future at the very least.
>> Ken
>> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 19:29 -0300, Germán Arduino wrote:
>>> I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting,  
>>> complete and cool.
>>>
>>> Thanks you.
>>>
>>>
>>> 2008/3/13, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]>:
>>>> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the  
>>>> community!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ron Teitelbaum
>>>>
>
>>>> > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]> écrivait :
>>>> >
>>>> > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
>>>> > years,
>>>> > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so  Mars 31  
>>>> I will
>>>> > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to  
>>>> maintain the
>>>> > >website, ftp and mailing list.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence  
>>>> join
>>>> > the
>>>> > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >Karl
>>>> >
>>>> > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
>
>
> --
> Janko Mivšek
> AIDA/Web
> Smalltalk Web Application Server
> http://www.aidaweb.si

>
> On Mar 13, 2008, at 5:23 PM, Janko Miv?ek wrote:
>
>> Hi Squeakers,
>>
>> I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping Squeak
>> community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
>>
>> Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience building up
>> and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some experience
>> how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations (SEO).
>
> While SEO experience is an important skill for website management, I think
> you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against Seaside to be a
> serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO tasks, and the Squeak
> website itself could certainly be improved in that way, I fear that your
> solutions will inherently involve your favorite hammer rather than working
> within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways it provides.

> On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 05:48:29PM -0700, Brian T. Rice wrote:
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2008, at 5:23 PM, Janko Miv?ek wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Squeakers,
>>>
>>> I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping  
>>> Squeak
>>> community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
>>>
>>> Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience  
>>> building up
>>> and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some  
>>> experience
>>> how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations  
>>> (SEO).
>>
>> While SEO experience is an important skill for website management,  
>> I think
>> you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against Seaside  
>> to be a
>> serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO tasks, and  
>> the Squeak
>> website itself could certainly be improved in that way, I fear that  
>> your
>> solutions will inherently involve your favorite hammer rather than  
>> working
>> within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways it provides.
>
> For what it's worth, practically none of the Squeak website uses  
> Seaside:
>
> - squeak.org uses Smallwiki, which has it's own web engine.

>
>> That experience can help to improve a bit otherwise already very rich
>> Squeak website. Other possibility for improvement is to upgrade
>> technology behind website and here I can again contribute with
>> Aida/Scribo CMS, which is a base for Aida's website and is currently in
>> intense development, just adding blog support. That way a Squeak website
>> will also be a show point of most advanced technology Squeakers have.
>> Which is good in my opinion for Squeak and Smalltalk promotion in
>> general.
>
> Aida/Scribe CMS is the "most advanced technology Squeakers have"? While
> it's probably quite good, I think you're revealing your self-interest.
>
> I don't want to debate which framework or approach to web development is
> better (and neither do you, apparently, having made your choice and
> vocalizing it constantly), but Squeak does have a CMS and it seems to
> serve us as a community well enough to keep improving it. Seaside also
> provides us with some very innovative approaches to web applications
> development that it alone is good PR for the community.
>
>> To conclude, I can contribute with maintaining content on one side but
>> also to upgrade the website technology to Aida/Scribo CMS, so that a
>> website will be modern, with fresh and relevant content and with all
>> things such site needs to have those days.
>
> I spend a lot of time with non-Smalltalkers who do web development, and
> myself am currently working on web applications in a non-Smalltalk (yet
> palatable) environment, so my bias is towards the perspective of
> outsiders who are looking for open accessible information and exposition
> of the Squeak community and its artifacts. I would offer my candidacy as
> an alternative to your proposed deal in which you link your volunteerism
> to lead with an "upgrade" of the site to the application framework you
> author and self-promote.
>
> I think the main "upgrade" we do need is for the Squeak Swiki, which is
> many years old and doesn't help us with SEO at all, as I have repeatedly
> found out while trying to google some solution for new Squeakers. Aida
> could possibly help with that, but so could many other choices. In any
> case, the answer is more about content and making Squeak and Squeak
> information findable than any technology.
>
>> Ken Causey wrote:
>>> While I'm sure Karl welcomes your thanks it seems like maybe you and
>>> some others have missed the point.  Karl is not fishing for comments.
>>> In the recent past he has repeatedly announced that he wishes to step
>>> down from leading the website team and would like to find a replacement.
>>> He has not gotten any replies.  He is now stating that he really is
>>> leaving with a specific deadline (the end of this month) and it is now
>>> really time for someone to step up and lead the website team for the
>>> immediate future at the very least.
>>> Ken
>>> On Thu, 2008-03-13 at 19:29 -0300, Germán Arduino wrote:
>>>> I also wants to thank you. The site is updated, interesting,
>>>> complete and cool.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks you.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2008/3/13, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]>:
>>>>> Yes indeed thank you very much for your terrific service to the
>>>>> community!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ron Teitelbaum
>>>>>
>>
>>>>> > Le 13/03/08, karl <[hidden email]> écrivait :
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >I've been Webteam leader on the Squeak website for quite a few
>>>>> > years,
>>>>> > >and have now totally lost time to keep that work, so  Mars 31 I
>>>>> will
>>>>> > >step down. It's been a fun and interesting experience to
>>>>> maintain the
>>>>> > >website, ftp and mailing list.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >I recommend that people interested in Squeaks web appearence join
>>>>> > the
>>>>> > >webteam and maybe lead the site into new and exiting areas.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > >Karl
>>>>> >
>>>>> > You did a very good job thank you very much for your time
>>
>>
>> --Janko Mivšek
>> AIDA/Web
>> Smalltalk Web Application Server
>> http://www.aidaweb.si
>
> --
> http://BrianTRice.com
>
>
>

>
>  On Mar 13, 2008, at 5:58 PM, Matthew Fulmer wrote:
>
>  > On Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 05:48:29PM -0700, Brian T. Rice wrote:
>  >>
>  >> On Mar 13, 2008, at 5:23 PM, Janko Miv?ek wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> Hi Squeakers,
>  >>>
>  >>> I'd like to announce that I'm seriously thinking about helping
>  >>> Squeak
>  >>> community with stepping up as a WebTeam team leader.
>  >>>
>  >>> Let me introduce myself a bit: I already have an experience
>  >>> building up
>  >>> and maintaining content on Aida/Web site and I also got some
>  >>> experience
>  >>> how to do promotion and how to do a Search Engine Optimizations
>  >>> (SEO).
>  >>
>  >> While SEO experience is an important skill for website management,
>  >> I think
>  >> you are too partisan in your marketing for Aida and against Seaside
>  >> to be a
>  >> serious candidate. I've done some basic effective SEO tasks, and
>  >> the Squeak
>  >> website itself could certainly be improved in that way, I fear that
>  >> your
>  >> solutions will inherently involve your favorite hammer rather than
>  >> working
>  >> within Seaside (aka "what we have") the ways it provides.
>  >
>  > For what it's worth, practically none of the Squeak website uses
>  > Seaside:
>  >
>  > - squeak.org uses Smallwiki, which has it's own web engine.
>
>
> Not Smallwiki2/Pier? Huh, that's what I thought was there.
>
>
>  > - swiki uses swiki, which uses PWS
>  > - lists.squeakfoundation.org uses Mailman, a python tool
>  > - bugs.squeak.org uses Mantis, a php tool
>  > - map.squeak.org uses HttpView2
>  > - people.squeakfoundation.org uses some php tool
>  > - source.squeakfoundation.org uses SqueakSource, which uses
>  >  seaside.
>  >
>  > So, Seaside can't really be said to be "what we have"
>
>
>
> Yeah, I'm aware of these, but it's helpful to see them presented as
>  such a group. Well then, maybe Aida is a step forward if Janko (or his
>  Aida users) can deliver and maintain what he seems to intend. But any
>  upgrades should start with the Swiki since it has a large amount of
>  content and isn't an externally-maintained piece of software (it's
>  effectively abandonware). I certainly won't say that I like or prefer
>  that these are all in various technologies, some grottier than others,
>  but information visibility should be the lead goal.
>
>  I *would* like SqueakSource to be MUCH more friendly to external
>  linking (some would say RESTful; I just want it SEO-friendly) but we'd
>  need to wrangle some effort in that direction (no one in charge of SqS
>  claims to have the time to do it yet).
>
>  In any case, we're talking about a pretty large effort for a community
>  of mostly part-time people.
>
>

Actually, Aida is very easy to learn :)
>

> Igor Stasenko wrote:
>  > If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
>  > stagnation and movement i choose movement.
>
>
> I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
>  such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
>  big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
>  by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
>

> On 14/03/2008, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Igor Stasenko wrote:
>>  > If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
>>  > stagnation and movement i choose movement.
>>
>>
>> I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
>>  such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
>>  big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
>>  by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
>>
>
> Well, i hope Janko understands how hard it can be. And if he really
> thinks that he capable to work things out, then why not. Nevertheless,
> we have to put trust in people time to time :)

> Igor Stasenko wrote:
>  > On 14/03/2008, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  >> Igor Stasenko wrote:
>  >>  > If Janko can push things with Aida, i don't mind so. Between
>  >>  > stagnation and movement i choose movement.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> I would recommend spending two minutes to think about how to roll out
>  >>  such a change and how to roll back if (god forbid) the job turns out too
>  >>  big, the tool not suited, or the volunteer in question getting run over
>  >>  by a bus. Only headless chickens move merely for the sake of movement ;-)
>  >>
>  >
>  > Well, i hope Janko understands how hard it can be. And if he really
>  > thinks that he capable to work things out, then why not. Nevertheless,
>  > we have to put trust in people time to time :)
>
>
> Sure. But part of trusting him to work things out is to trust him to
>  come up with a plan that can address these issues, no? (and by "plan" I
>  mean nothing complicated - just a staging site so that people can have a
>  look at it and the board can decide when it's ready to go live)
>