Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

Tim, Daniel,

==================
> +1
>
> UI widgets are a solved problem. It is part of the operating
> system. Like writing a file system is done, writing UI widgets is
> done too.

Now that I have to disagree with. There is no OS/GUI /platform that I
have so much as heard rumours of that qualify as having 'solved UI
widgets'. They are all sufficiently steeped in effluvium as to smell
bad.

I don't think filing systems are 'done ' either; certainly microsoft
hasn't managed to finish that damn big file system it's been
promising RSN since I first moved to the US in 91. Unix is not
exactly a shining example either.

Just because lots (all?) of the current commercial platforms do
something doesn't mean it is a good - or even acceptable - idea.
======================

I must side with Tim here, at least most of the way.  I will grant that
Squeak is hurting in the GUI department, but native widgets are not a
cure-all.  Further, I care much more about the user interface I present
to users than I care about the interface that is presented to me.

I wish Rob great success with wxSqueak, but remain convinced that
emulated widgets will continue to have a place.  I believe that because
I created many of them in Dolphin, largely for performance reasons.
Most of my users don't know what native widgets are, and couldn't care
less about them as long as software is responsive and easy to use.

Users _do_ understand keyboard focus, at least well enough to know when
it is botched.  They understand when they have to click to get
something's attention and then again to interact with it, they
understand when something "sticks to the mouse" when that was not their
intent, etc.  Between look and feel, the feel is vastly more important.
 IMHO, it is also the thing that Morphic or any other framework needs to
control/respect/assist.  Look can/should be pluggable.  This is not
about native vs. emulated; it is about good GUI design.  I think we
should have good design with a choice of native and emulated widgets.

Bill



Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: [hidden email]
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

On Jul 7, 2006, at 4:56 PM, nicolas cellier wrote:

The Squeak UI on the Mac is identical to the Squeak UI on Windows &  
Linux (being totally non-native), so yes, you do know how good the  
Squeak UI on the Mac is. :-)

> ...
> How can i switch keyboard focus from one pane to another, or change  
> window
> stack order without using the mouse?

While I think complaints about the Squeak UI look are sometimes  
unwarranted, complaints about the feel and especially keyboard focus  
usually *are* warranted. :-)  The keyboard focus behavior in Squeak  
(Morphic/MVC) is generally bad, terrible, and just plain lousy.  
Fortunately, I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim otherwise, so  
we all know it's a lacking area in Squeak.

The biggest problem I think is that keyboard focus for SystemWindows  
and other common widgets/morphs was just never really implemented.  
For example, changing focus between window panes, or between windows,  
etc, cannot be done via the keyboard.  But some stuff such as  
keyboard arrowing up and down in lists to change selection does work.

Then there's Squeak's keyboard focus behavior when moving the mouse  
around, which is sort of a combination of Mac/Windows "click to  
focus" and X11 "mouse over focus" behavior.  In Squeak, you have  
"click to focus" behavior between windows (you have to click on a  
window to type in it), but between panes within a window, you have to  
mouse over to that pane.  After using all three UIs over the years,  
I'd say having a mix is probably the worst option... it might be  
worth converting Squeak to just one or the other.  (I'd lean toward  
"click to focus".)  I'm guessing this behavior originated with  
Smalltalk-80.

And then then are some bugs & inconsistencies thrown in here and  
there too. :)

> Did you really try to copy/paste text from squeak to another  
> application et
> vice et versa? switching from ALT+C to CTRL+V, or the contrary is  
> really is
> gymnastic for user hands and brain... That is obviously why a  
> little bit of
> standardization does not harm.

For a bit of good news, this is actually fixed in Squeak 3.9.  You  
can use either ctrl or alt (cmd) for the common text-editing key  
commands.  (The dup ctrl-alt keys preference is turned on by  
default.  A more expert user can turn it off if desired.)

> My personnal opinion is that among palo alto inventions, the mouse  
> was not the
> greatest. Hands are wonderfull tools with a lot of articulations.  
> Compare how
> many articulations are working when hitting the keyboard and how  
> many when
> using the mouse... You will understand why many feel the mouse as a  
> handicap.
> And why many are still using emacs vi and mc.

I would not go that far... the mouse is a great thing.  But it would  
be great to be able to just rely on the keyboard to do typical  
development/windowing UI tasks in Squeak.  I think this is achievable  
if someone wants to take it on.

- Doug

> So, when you say "the look does not matter", or Squeak UI is great,  
> please
> don't forget the feel. Lot of people won't find mouse-centric UI  
> that great.
>
> Nicolas
>
>

> Then there's Squeak's keyboard focus behavior when moving the mouse
> around, which is sort of a combination of Mac/Windows "click to focus"
> and X11 "mouse over focus" behavior.  In Squeak, you have "click to
> focus" behavior between windows (you have to click on a window to type
> in it), but between panes within a window, you have to mouse over to
> that pane.  After using all three UIs over the years, I'd say having a
> mix is probably the worst option... it might be worth converting Squeak
> to just one or the other.  (I'd lean toward "click to focus".)  I'm
> guessing this behavior originated with Smalltalk-80.


This is something that really annoys me every day. If somebody has a
fix, I would greatly appreciate it. I would like the mouse position not
to decide about what is focused. I click somewhere in a window and then
I can throw my mouse cursor away and forget about it. Currently, I often
loose the focus when I throw my mouse.

Moreover, the option in the preference browser
'mouseOverForKeyboardFocus' only works for windows, and not for pane. If
I move the mouse between panes, the focus change even the option is set
to false.


Bye

(cross-post from beginners list)

On 7/11/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Anyone tried the Etoys-Version? Someone told me that it was not
> working for him, but I did not investigate...
>
http://www.squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://www.emergent.de/pub/smalltalk/squeak/projects/reverse.pr

Yes - it is fun and has a lovely interface.  (I am using Linux and
Firefox - and I have a squeakland-3.8-1.noarch.rpm from
www.squeakland.org)  It is a great demo of the power of tiles and
Etoys.

I am brand new to smalltalk and Etoys, and to 'everything is an
object'.  So, I tried to teach myself something from Markus work.  My
learning anecdote is included as a p.s.

My tentative conclusion - it feels like I have a long learning curve
ahead of me - a curve of building, breaking and repairing many Etoys,
and learning the underlying development tools, before I could
confidently assist a 12 year old who wants to make his imagination
come to life on his computer screen.  I intend to embark on that
learning curve.  I hope to be surprised later when my nephew takes the
odd 'message not understood' dialog in his stride, deletes (or loses)
some of his work, and starts again in the excitement of authoring his
own multimedia product.   Do my thoughts resonate with those of you
more experienced, or is it easier than it looks to introduce tile
scripting to kids?

BTW - thanks Markus and best regards, David

p.s. my anecdote :
to teach myself a  little from Markus's Reverse Game, I click around a
bit to try to work out 1. why/how do all the buttons run the same
scripts? 2. where is the HelperStack?

In overenthusiastic clicking, I delete a ScriptStatusControl and break
the toy :( ('Message not understood' dialog whenever I click on a
number cell.)  I decide this is another learning opportunity.  A
couple of minutes clicking around and I haven't found out how to give
the broken script a new status control.  I googled aound a bit for
docs, but I know too little about Squeak to know what to ask Google.
Next I try to make a new tile script from scratch (monkey see - monkey
do)

Oops! I accidentally click on a 'send message' (! bang) button, and
Squeak goes into a busy loop.  The screen is not updating at all, and
my processsor is at 100% for 3 or 4 minutes.  Finally, my processor
load goes back to normal, but still nothing is happening in the Squeak
window.  I still don't know the answers to my first two questions.  I
have more sympathy with Chris Cunnington.

On 7/13/06, Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree with Damien and Doug.  However Doug implies a common
misconception (perhaps accidentally.)  Though in Windows 'click to
focus' is the default, it can be quickly switched to 'focus follows
mouse'. It is really a matter of personal preference.   In either
platform, it is configured globally, and individual objects/apps don't
really get a say in the matter.  I suspect that a mainstream Squeak
would succeed by following the 'click to focus' fashion, but an ideal
would be to provide some sort of global switch to the other behaviour.

There should remain plenty of leeway for UI research, allowing
alternative models to be installed and easily shared.  (An example of
an alternative models would be the portal model in Croquet.
Different Squeak images having different mouse button bindings is, in
my opinion, not research but merely accidental randomness, with
unforeseen effects on those kind volunteers who write beginner
documentation. )

By the way - I found the 'focus follows mouse' behaviour in the
Croquet HedgeHacks spreadsheet somewhat disorientating.

I noticed that on my X desktop, keyboard focus follows mouse between
applications (which I like) but I have to click (or use tab etc.)  to
move focus between text entry widgets inside a window.    This works
fine, and it is the mirror image of the mixed behaviour that Doug
describes in Squeak.  That Squeak behaviour is very hard for me as I
normally use a ThinkPad Trackpoint that suffers from pointer drift.
>From what little I know of Smalltalk, either mix is contrary to the ST
philosophy of 'everything is an object', which is, in any case,
utterly disorienting to those of us used to platforms where the
application GUI and the desktop/window manger have an arms length
relationship with each other.

Anyway, now the 'cool' UI research funding is going into 3D and
virtual reality, I don't expect anyone to tell us scientifically how
to improve 2D apps. I suspect 2D state-of-the-art will remain the
state-of-the-art as found in PARC in 1979.  Vista/Aqua/GNOME/KDE will
continue to look and, more importantly, feel, basically the same (and
basically the same as Squeak.)

David

Hi David,

On 7/13/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote:

A very useful lesson - thank you Markus.  This is looks quite
different from the class methods of some other object systems.

I should have put a break point in there as well - I put Squeak in an
infinite loop all over again.  Anyway - I see your trick now!

Without labouring a point that has been discussed many times, this
kind of defeats the concepts of persistence of objects in the Squeak
image and independence from the host operating system. - if a child
had lots of artwork in their project, they would have to save an image
or a project file regularly, so they could backtrack in case I come
along and break the project.    Which is best - project file or
changeset or image file?

>  I still don't know the answers to my first two questions.  I
> have more sympathy with Chris Cunnington.
>
>
> This project is intended to show (off ;-) what could be done with Etoys and
> really pushing its limits.
> I guess it is less suited as a general intro, but - who knows?

You are right - there is a lot more in here than in the 'Drive a Car'
toy.  And, you hid the Navigator and Supplies flaps to further confuse
a beginner :)

But, it would be a good way to learn about ideas like sorting, arrays,
and, if I understand it correctly, an event driven approach to
applying the same action to multiple objects  (this is very
fashionable in the current world of Service Oriented Architecture and
'middleware' ... but it probably has general application to
computation, problem-solving and domain modelling for children.)

mouseOverForKeyboardFocus took some getting used to, but I love it now.
 

A real nice thing about it is you can close windows easily with
Command+w, no tedious aiming for the small "x" in the corner.  Instead
of having to precise gestures with the mouse I am able to do relatively
imprecise gestures.

This is very useful for coding.  For example, when you are typing a
method, you aren't sure abbout a method name, you simply highlight the
method argument (aSet) and Set pops up.  Find the method, copy it, then
sloppily toss the pointer back to the text pane where you were typing
just press and Command+w to close the Set browser currently on top.

Everyone raves about e-Completion.  I still have it isntalled but
rarely use it anymore because this method of spawning browsers and
quickly closing them just works much better.

You can also quickly "clean up" your desktop by just move the mouse to
the bottom and Command+w, Command+w, Command+w.

Overall, now that I'm used to it I find it very productive, and have
other "standard" environments actually feeling quite cumbersome.  Call
me weird..


--- Damien Cassou <[hidden email]> wrote:

This doesn't work for me :(
I have mouseOverForKeyboardFocus enabled but I still need to click to focus.

Any ideas?

Philippe

P.S.:
I remember someone in the gentoo forums having a
sloppy focus owns you!
sig ;)

2006/7/14, Chris Muller <[hidden email]>:

On 7/14/06, Philippe Marschall <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This doesn't work for me :(
> I have mouseOverForKeyboardFocus enabled but I still need to click to focus.
>
> Any ideas?

Me too!  I just tried this.  I noticed that in my image*, some windows
(like System Browser) honour this preference, but others (notably
Workspace and Transcript) do not honour it.

In more detail: Workspace loses keyboard focus when I mouse off it,
but does not claim it back again when I mouse back on to it, until I
'red click'.  In my image 'each project has its own setting' is
unchecked.

Has this been changed in 3.9 ?

David
(*)squeakland 3.8-05

You still need to click to get focus to another window but, for the top
window, simply mousing over the various panes should transfer focus to
those panes.

To get Command+w to close windows be sure to set honorDesktopCmdKeys.



--- David Corking <[hidden email]> wrote:

David,

==================
Me too! I just tried this. I noticed that in my image*, some windows
(like System Browser) honour this preference, but others (notably
Workspace and Transcript) do not honour it.

In more detail: Workspace loses keyboard focus when I mouse off it,
but does not claim it back again when I mouse back on to it, until I
'red click'. In my image 'each project has its own setting' is
unchecked.

Has this been changed in 3.9 ?
==================

It sounds like we are coming from different sides of the argument (I do
not want the input focus changing based on mouse movement), but I agree
that this is pretty badly broken.  You might _carefully_ try my
mouseOverMadness change set on Mantis.  AFAIK, it won't trash your
image, but please do not risk learning the hard way.  Anyway, I tried to
respect the setting, not simply enforce my preference, and you might be
able to suggest a few more changes to get the behavior you want when the
preferences favor it.

Bill



Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
University of Florida
Department of Anesthesiology
PO Box 100254
Gainesville, FL 32610-0254

Email: [hidden email]
Tel: (352) 846-1285
FAX: (352) 392-7029

On 7/14/06, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> You still need to click to get focus to another window but, for the top
> window, simply mousing over the various panes should transfer focus to
> those panes.
>

This is not at all how it is working for me.

With mouseOverForKeyboardFocus preference OFF I get the behaviour you
describe, Chris.

With it turned ON, I only need to mouse over a new window to give it
focus.  This is like 'strict focus follows mouse' in Windows and X.
However some windows don't take kindly to losing the focus and getting
it back again like this - Transcript and Workspace need a click before
they will accept text entry to their edit panes.

Anyway, it doesn't do to labour the point, as it is too late to
propose these ideas for the 3.9 branch (maybe 3.10 ?)  I need to look
at Bill's changeset, and at non-squeakland distributions, before I
discuss it any further.

David

tim Rowledge wrote:
>
> On 8-Jul-06, at 1:37 AM, Daniel Poon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> I am defining "done" as "Part of mainstream computing and a problem
>> that I don't have to think about anymore. I can use what is there".
>
> I claim that is a completely pointless mis-definition.

Defining what we mean by "done" is a very useful way of managing
projects. No more than that.

>>
>> I am sure there is still work to be done on UI widgets, but that does
>> not affect me as a consumer of those widgets. Same goes for file systems.
>
> Good grief, it's not merely 'ui widgets' that need work but the entire
> concept of ui. And filing system. Your statement is similar to the claim
> that there is no more science to be done.

Like I said before, that does not affect me as a consumer.

After following what is happening with Squeak at the moment, happily it
seems that there will be enough room in Squeak for our different points
of view. Its great that Squeak has people that are examining all the
assumptions in UI design.

Cheers

Daniel

We can also read this report from Mr. Guido Van Rossum's Chinese Blog
at:
http://blog.csdn.net/gvanrossum/archive/2006/07/10/898557.aspx

So I post some of our comments on it. Yes, the most important thing
is "Children first", no matter what kind of  means.

Regards

Liu