Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
 
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There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his web
log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318 -- oooo Dr. Serge Stinckwich OOOOOOOO Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD OOESUGOO http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich oooooo Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] \ / ## |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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Serge Stinckwich wrote:
> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his > web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318 > this is sad to read: Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also, the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient. (At the Shuttleworth summit in April <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.) -- brad sonaural |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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Il giorno gio, 06/07/2006 alle 15.46 -0700, Brad Fuller ha scritto:
> Serge Stinckwich wrote: > > There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his > > web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318 > > > this is sad to read: > > Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or > Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will > have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also, > the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a > Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient. > (At the Shuttleworth summit in April > <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe > Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple > graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator > cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the > other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.) In the comments to this thread, GvR acknowledges that this part of his report was actually a misunderstanding on his part. Giovanni |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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Giovanni Corriga wrote:
> Il giorno gio, 06/07/2006 alle 15.46 -0700, Brad Fuller ha scritto: > >> Serge Stinckwich wrote: >> >>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his >>> web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318 >>> >>> >> this is sad to read: >> >> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or >> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will >> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also, >> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a >> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient. >> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April >> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe >> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple >> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator >> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the >> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.) >> > > In the comments to this thread, GvR acknowledges that this part of his > report was actually a misunderstanding on his part. > "Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or Squeak, and that because of this, a similar environment in Python will have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one" I do recall Alan saying something about Python, similar to this statement, before. Don't remember where. brad -- brad sonaural |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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Brad,
> I did see the comments about graphics, but nothing about > "Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or > Squeak, and that because of this, a similar environment in Python will > have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one" The sentense actually doesn't start there. Right before this quote, there is a phrase "apparently (or just for the occasion :-)". While Python may have better chance of succeeding, it doesn't stop Squeakers to try to make something even better than what we have now or what the Python version may end up with. -- Yoshiki |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote: > Serge Stinckwich wrote: >> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his >> web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp? >> thread=167318 >> > this is sad to read: > > Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than > Smalltalk or > Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will > have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also, > the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping > that a > Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient. > (At the Shuttleworth summit in April > <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe > Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple > graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator > cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the > other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.) > > -- > brad > sonaural > > Hi folks, let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys and let us accept the challenge. I googled for python IDEs today and found http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments and there the most up to date IDE shootout of http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html and http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html I have to say that I was not impressed. The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev based on Qt (Eric4) had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak? Cheers, Markus p.s. another blog about Alan's talk can be found on http://vanrees.org/weblog/archive/2006/07/03/europython-keynote-alan- kay-children-first p.p.s. inspired by Paul Bissex - a guy who once wrote a small article about squeak for Wired - challenge on: http://e-scribe.com/news/193 I wrote an Etoys version of this "reverse"-game. It can be found on http://www.squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://www.emergent.de/pub/ smalltalk/squeak/projects/reverse.pr (I hope you all have the squeakland plugin installed... ;-) ) It has only a few lines more than the smalltalk (I included a smalltalk version), python, ruby,... version but comes with a much more sophisticated user interface. So I do think that Etoys are the way to go... no matter what the language is underneath - be it smalltalk/python/ruby/etc... |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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How, exactly, is Alan Kay still relevant?
Chris Cunnington Toronto |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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In reply to this post by Yoshiki Ohshima
On Thu, Jul 06, 2006 at 04:49:39PM -0700, Yoshiki Ohshima wrote:
> > While Python may have better chance of succeeding, it doesn't stop > Squeakers to try to make something even better than what we have now > or what the Python version may end up with. Well said Yoshiki. |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3
I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment" -- brad sonaural |
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In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
Hi Folks --
At 03:46 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote: >Serge Stinckwich wrote: > > There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his > > web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318 > > >this is sad to read: > >Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or >Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will >have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Explicitly for the deployment and maintainence in the third world on a Linux platform ... > Also, >the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a >Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient. We will also have the Squeak based stuff on there. But I'm worried about maintenance and extensions, etc. So we made a new version of Etoys (called "WYSIwiki - will be released later this summer) that uses an OpenDoc format for moving project/pages around. This could have any number of "players/authoring hosts", and I'm hoping that both the Python and Ruby communities will take a shot at doing one. >(At the Shuttleworth summit in April ><http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe >Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple >graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator >cards because of its platform-independent architecture. I, of course, said nothing of the kind (since (a) this isn't true and (b) Croquet does use OpenGL). >Python on the >other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.) But it doesn't really have a reasonable graphics system. However, an etoys environment is essentially a reasonable OOPL + plus a comprehensive graphics system, so it would benefit the Python folks to take this step. Cheers, Alan >-- >brad >sonaural |
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In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
... Children First!
(It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.) Cheers, Alan At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote: Markus Gaelli wrote: |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington-5
I'm not sure your question is serious, but for me, as a LONG-time
Smalltalker, I pay a lot of attention to what Alan says because he has such a great depth and breadth of knowledge about the language, the tool, the history, the intent, the weaknesses, the power... He's nearly as important to Smalltalk/Squeak as Guido is to Python, IMNSHO. Dan On Jul 6, 2006, at 5:37 PM, Chris Cunnington wrote: > How, exactly, is Alan Kay still relevant? > > Chris Cunnington > Toronto > > |
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In reply to this post by Alan Kay
Right. I *fully* support Alan's efforts to get these communities
involved in the educational efforts - if we compete then the kids will ultimately win. If that is in Squeak or in Python or in Ruby, who cares? Cheers, - Andreas Alan Kay wrote: > ... Children First! > > (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.) > > Cheers, > > Alan > > At 07:24 PM 7/6/2006, Brad Fuller wrote: >> Markus Gaelli wrote: >>> >>> On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote: >>>> Serge Stinckwich wrote: >>>>> There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his >>>>> web log here : >>>>> http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318 >>>> this is sad to read: >>>> >>>> Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or >>>> Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will >>>> have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also, >>>> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a >>>> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient. >>>> (At the Shuttleworth summit in April >>>> < >>>> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162>http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> >>>> <http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe >>>> Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple >>>> graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator >>>> cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the >>>> other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.) >>>> >>>> --brad >>>> sonaural >>>> >>> >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys >>> and let us accept the challenge. >>> >>> I googled for python IDEs today and found >>> http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments >>> and there the most up to date IDE shootout of >>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html >>> and >>> http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html >>> >>> I have to say that I was not impressed. >>> >>> The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev >>> based on Qt (Eric4) >>> had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE >>> couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev >>> or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython >>> >>> Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives >>> for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a >>> better place - if it is not Squeak? >> I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, >> Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the >> paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit >> from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's >> referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment" >> >> -- >> brad >> sonaural > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > |
Re: "Children First!" means ...
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In reply to this post by Alan Kay
On 7/7/06, Alan Kay <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > ... Children First! > > (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.) > +1 I always feel that these discussions are aboutas fruitful as discussions about what brand screwdriver to use :-) Python has a *huge* mindshare, compared to Squeak. If Alan can leverage that and thereby get better software, that's great. |
Re: "Children First!" means ...
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On Jul 7, 2006, at 9:29 AM, Cees De Groot wrote: > On 7/7/06, Alan Kay <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> ... Children First! >> >> (It doesn't mean Squeak First, or Python or Ruby First.) >> > +1 +1 > > I always feel that these discussions are aboutas fruitful as > discussions about what brand screwdriver to use :-) -1 ;-) Not for the ones who haven't understood yet, that the screws are standard - I did not entirely realize until now, that both the snake and the mouse could create, exchange and eat _the same_ dog food. it is good news to me that the next Etoys version will be more language agnostic as it is running in a net environment like a Wiki and based on an open standard format. > > Python has a *huge* mindshare, compared to Squeak. If Alan can > leverage that and thereby get better software, that's great. > Right. Cheers, Markus |
Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote
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In reply to this post by Alan Kay
Am 07.07.2006 um 06:40 schrieb Alan Kay:
>> Also, >> the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping >> that a >> Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears >> expedient. > > We will also have the Squeak based stuff on there. But I'm worried > about maintenance and extensions, etc. So we made a new version of > Etoys (called "WYSIwiki - will be released later this summer) that > uses an OpenDoc format for moving project/pages around. This could > have any number of "players/authoring hosts", and I'm hoping that > both the Python and Ruby communities will take a shot at doing one. There is an experimental morphic-like environment in Python by Paul Fernhout (former Squeaker). It's only a few weeks in development, see the video linked from http://www.mail-archive.com/edu-sig@.../msg02492.html Python's "edu-sig" mailing list is an interesting place for sure, but I doubt they'll buy into the visual, constructivist approach of Etoys anytime soon. - Bert - |
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In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington-5
Interesting question, Chris.
In a sense, Alan's work and vision have become so foundational
to both computing and to computers in education that he has attained the
ubiquity, and therefore the sort of "familiar imperceptibility," of the ground
beneath us or the air around us -- without them or him we wouldn't be where we
are but we also wouldn't know what we'd missed. Think of how the Macintosh
computer, for example, has changed the world, and then step back to see that the
Mac was a feeble effort to approach a vision Alan had set out and, with
associates like Dan Ingalls, demonstrated years earlier, yet which, fully
realized, is still just a little beyond us today -- and still being
shepherded by Dr. Alan Kay.
In education, you will find computers used (by students) in
one of two ways; either the unsuccessful "trade school" model where kids are lashed to a
machine and forced to do office work (though even that is thoroughly and
thankfully infused with user interface models we owe to Dr. Kay) or the
highly successful "human augmentation" model in which
computers become tools to free and even to inspire understanding and intelligent
imagination in young minds. This second model, which is in use today
at schools all over the world, can unquestionably be traced to Dr. Kay's work
with students at Jordan Junior High in 1973 (at a time when few students beneath
the graduate school level had even seen, much less been permitted to use, any
computer at all) -- and is still benefitting from Alan's constant
efforts.
The Dynabook,
Alan's 1968 proposal for a computer powerful, portable and inexpensive enough to
become an interactive textbook and tool for students from the elementary school
level on up, is quite clearly the underlying concept behind today's initiative
(www.laptop.org) to put such tools in the
hands of children, especially in those countries where educational opportunities
have for so long lagged behind -- and Dr. Alan Kay is an advisor to that
iniative.
Dr. Kay's comment that ". . . if you are immersed in a context
you can't even see it" ironically applies to himself with regard to your
question, for in many ways Alan Kay has *become* context in his field.
Alan Kay is relevant as visionary and pioneer, yes, but also as organizer,
encourager, leader, promoter -- in short, as teacher to those of us who try, and
hope someday to catch and then to carry his vision, not just for the means
represented by superior programming languages and intuitive user interfaces but
for the goal of
helping the next generations to truly make the world a better
place.
Gary
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Cunnington" <[hidden email]>
To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote Chris Cunnington Toronto |
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Gary Fisher wrote:
> Interesting question, Chris. > > In a sense, Alan's work and vision have become so foundational to both > computing and to computers in education that he has attained the > ubiquity, and therefore the sort of "familiar imperceptibility," of > the ground beneath us or the air around us -- without them or him we > wouldn't be where we are but we also wouldn't know what we'd missed. > Think of how the Macintosh computer, for example, has changed the > world, and then step back to see that the Mac was a feeble effort to > approach a vision Alan had set out and, with associates like Dan > Ingalls, demonstrated years earlier, yet which, fully realized, is > still just a little beyond us today -- and still being shepherded by > Dr. Alan Kay. > > In education, you will find computers used (by students) in one of two > ways; either the unsuccessful "trade school" model > <http://www.kto8.com/lessons_demo.php> where kids are lashed to a > machine and forced to do office work (though even that is thoroughly > and thankfully infused with user interface models we owe to Dr. Kay) > or the highly successful "human augmentation" model > <http://www.squeakland.org/school/schoolhome.html> in which computers > become tools to free and even to inspire understanding and intelligent > imagination in young minds. This second model, which is in use today > at schools all over the world, can unquestionably be traced to Dr. > Kay's work with students at Jordan Junior High in 1973 (at a time when > few students beneath the graduate school level had even seen, much > less been permitted to use, any computer at all) -- and is > still benefitting from Alan's constant efforts. > > The Dynabook > <http://www.artmuseum.net/w2vr/archives/Kay/01_Dynabook.html>, Alan's > 1968 proposal for a computer powerful, portable and inexpensive enough > to become an interactive textbook and tool for students from the > elementary school level on up, is quite clearly the underlying concept > behind today's initiative (www.laptop.org <http://www.laptop.org>) to > put such tools in the hands of children, especially in those countries > where educational opportunities have for so long lagged behind -- and > Dr. Alan Kay is an advisor to that iniative. > > Dr. Kay's comment that ". . . if you are immersed in a context you > can't even see it" ironically applies to himself with regard to your > question, for in many ways Alan Kay has *become* context in his > field. Alan Kay is relevant as visionary and pioneer, yes, but also > as organizer, encourager, leader, promoter -- in short, as teacher to > those of us who try, and hope someday to catch and then to carry his > vision, not just for the means represented by superior programming > languages and intuitive user interfaces but for the goal > <http://www.viewpointsresearch.org/about.html> of helping the next > generations to truly make the world a better place. > > Gary I say: "Alan Kay for President!" -- brad sonaural |
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Let's see. Where to start. I said "still". I said why is Alan Kay "still"
relevant. And, yes, it means I have a beef with this pioneer. But as I say in my blog, let's back up. It has been acknowledged that he is a pioneer, and has done things ... in the past. That¹s why I used the word "still" to qualify my question. Mac's, Turing award, object-oriented language pioneering. In the past. Why is he still relevant? A sense a whole lot of hero worship here, people. That's not good for anything. Alan Kay says all the time that he wants things to be made obsolete, so that they can be reinvented. Everything except himself, of course. You will never exceed your masters if you revere them too much. There is a time for putting them aside and doing YOUR thing. As they say in the Japanese martial arts: enter form; exit form. Learn, and then go further. I'll say the two things (that I know about) that make him relevant, and why he gets on my nerves. I want to see WYSIwiki. I glimpse the vast potential of Etoys. I want the Smalltalk Flash plug-in. I want the 3D virtual reality demo that Kay did (and you can see in Google Video) available to everyone, so that World Of Warcraft could be written in Smalltalk. I also think Kay is useful in licensing. He has thawed up the Apple/Squeak license problem. I want a Linux distro to carry Squeak AROUND THE WORLD. What annoys me is his ability to be the Pied Piper nobody else can follow. Here is a guy who goes around the world making killer demonstrations to audiences. If somebody in the audience says "I want to do that too", then they have a huge problem on their hands. Etoys is the perfect example. Go to Google Video, look up Smalltalk or Squeak and find the American teacher, who made three videos of his use of Etoys, and how he had to abandon it. I wrote about it in my blog. The Smalltalk/Squeak world has a HUGE documentation and support problem. You don't think so because YOU HAVE DRUNK THE KOOL-AID. Can you show me stats of people who tried to entered this world and were deterred by a variety of obstacles? If you want to lionize someone, then lionize Adele Goldberg. She wrote the books, people. Not as flashy or aggressive a personality as Alan Kay. But Dan Ingalls says she was the only documenter of the group. A song without a song sheet is a rumour. She's done more for the continuance of Smalltalk than Alan Kay for all his presentations. To my knowledge Alan Kay has never written a book in his life. Great talker, though. Chris Cunnington Toronto http://www.brokentomb.com P.S.: I may not be able to answer anything until Monday. I'm off to Toronto Trek 20. Mr. Sulu is here in Tdot! |
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sheess.... my president comment was tongue-in-cheek... just a joke.
I do agree with you on some aspects: squeak needs more class documentation, tutorials, etc. I disagree with you that you can't do what Alan demos. I'll check out your blog, though to get your full scoop. brad Chris Cunnington wrote: > Let's see. Where to start. I said "still". I said why is Alan Kay "still" > relevant. And, yes, it means I have a beef with this pioneer. But as I say > in my blog, let's back up. > > It has been acknowledged that he is a pioneer, and has done things ... in > the past. That¹s why I used the word "still" to qualify my question. Mac's, > Turing award, object-oriented language pioneering. In the past. Why is he > still relevant? > > A sense a whole lot of hero worship here, people. That's not good for > anything. Alan Kay says all the time that he wants things to be made > obsolete, so that they can be reinvented. Everything except himself, of > course. You will never exceed your masters if you revere them too much. > There is a time for putting them aside and doing YOUR thing. As they say in > the Japanese martial arts: enter form; exit form. Learn, and then go > further. > > I'll say the two things (that I know about) that make him relevant, and why > he gets on my nerves. > > I want to see WYSIwiki. I glimpse the vast potential of Etoys. I want the > Smalltalk Flash plug-in. I want the 3D virtual reality demo that Kay did > (and you can see in Google Video) available to everyone, so that World Of > Warcraft could be written in Smalltalk. > > I also think Kay is useful in licensing. He has thawed up the Apple/Squeak > license problem. I want a Linux distro to carry Squeak AROUND THE WORLD. > > What annoys me is his ability to be the Pied Piper nobody else can follow. > Here is a guy who goes around the world making killer demonstrations to > audiences. If somebody in the audience says "I want to do that too", then > they have a huge problem on their hands. Etoys is the perfect example. Go to > Google Video, look up Smalltalk or Squeak and find the American teacher, who > made three videos of his use of Etoys, and how he had to abandon it. I > wrote about it in my blog. > > The Smalltalk/Squeak world has a HUGE documentation and support problem. You > don't think so because YOU HAVE DRUNK THE KOOL-AID. Can you show me stats of > people who tried to entered this world and were deterred by a variety of > obstacles? > > If you want to lionize someone, then lionize Adele Goldberg. She wrote the > books, people. Not as flashy or aggressive a personality as Alan Kay. But > Dan Ingalls says she was the only documenter of the group. A song without a > song sheet is a rumour. She's done more for the continuance of Smalltalk > than Alan Kay for all his presentations. To my knowledge Alan Kay has never > written a book in his life. Great talker, though. > > Chris Cunnington > Toronto > > http://www.brokentomb.com > > P.S.: I may not be able to answer anything until Monday. I'm off to Toronto > Trek 20. Mr. Sulu is here in Tdot! > > > > |
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