Looking for good souls
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Re: Looking for good souls
 
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tim Rowledge a écrit :
> I feel the need to make a couple of points here:- > > a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a > good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to > spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good > place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a user > feels a little more confident and wants to do some research themself. > I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the fragmentation > they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent mechanism to provide an > easily growable knowledge base of answers and advice. A swiki should be > at least as good but they do seem to get horribly disorganised very > quickly so perhaps using a web forum in the style of www.osxfaq.com's > would be useful. Some threads are open to post questions and some are > closed as a record of an answer that should stand alone. What we usually do on the squeak-fr mailing list is to put valuable information posted in the list in our Wiki : http://community.ofset.org/wiki/Category:Squeak Our wiki is only 82 pages right now, but we try to avoid the mess, by continously categorize and refactor the pages. -- oooo Dr. Serge Stinckwich OOOOOOOO Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD OOESUGOO http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich oooooo Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] \ / ## |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
Hi,
why not simply squeak-help ? Regards Hans Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse: > sounds cool. >> In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world >> with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners. > > |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Serge Stinckwich-4
> What we usually do on the squeak-fr mailing list is to put valuable
> information posted in the list in our Wiki : http:// > community.ofset.org/wiki/Category:Squeak > Our wiki is only 82 pages right now, but we try to avoid the mess, > by continously categorize and refactor the pages. It is really nice to see what can be done step by step. Superbe! Keep doing that. This is nice to see all the papers and chapters we wrote online too. Excellent! May be an international group could do the same! Stef |
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In reply to this post by Serge Stinckwich-4
Hey a Squeakipedia is not a bad idea.
Anybody? Sebastian > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En > nombre de Serge Stinckwich > Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 15:47 > Para: [hidden email] > Asunto: Re: Looking for good souls > > tim Rowledge a écrit : > > I feel the need to make a couple of points here:- > > > > a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask > questions is a > > good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable > and able to > > spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good > > place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a > > user feels a little more confident and wants to do some > research themself. > > I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the > fragmentation > > they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent mechanism > to provide > > an easily growable knowledge base of answers and advice. A swiki > > should be at least as good but they do seem to get horribly > > disorganised very quickly so perhaps using a web forum in > the style of > > www.osxfaq.com's would be useful. Some threads are open to post > > questions and some are closed as a record of an answer that > should stand alone. > > What we usually do on the squeak-fr mailing list is to put > valuable information posted in the list in our Wiki : > http://community.ofset.org/wiki/Category:Squeak > Our wiki is only 82 pages right now, but we try to avoid the > mess, by continously categorize and refactor the pages. > > -- oooo > Dr. Serge Stinckwich OOOOOOOO > Université de Caen>CNRS UMR 6072>GREYC>MAD OOESUGOO > http://purl.org/net/SergeStinckwich oooooo > Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] \ / > ## > > > > > |
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In reply to this post by Hans N Beck
Squeak-help could work. An alternative to that would be
Squeak-support I think is more like companies wich make a forum to support the community of users. In this case is non profit but the target prupouse of the list should be *supporting squeak users* so.. Squeak-Support came to my mind. Anybody? Sebastian > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En > nombre de Hans N Beck > Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 15:50 > Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list > Asunto: Re: Looking for good souls > > Hi, > > why not simply squeak-help ? > > Regards > > Hans > > Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse: > > > sounds cool. > >> In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the > world with > >> "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners. > > > > > > |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Hans N Beck
I actually still think the "one-list-for-all" is best, because even
if you don't understand half of what is discussed, you at least get to know that more advanced topics exist. However, I can see how a newbie might be afraid of posting some basic question to squeak-dev. So to get new folks to participate, I'd make it explicit in the list name that it really is okay to ask even the dumbest questions. How about "squeak-newbies" Can't get much more inviting than that, can it? - Bert - Am 22.04.2006 um 20:49 schrieb Hans N Beck: > Hi, > > why not simply squeak-help ? > > Regards > > Hans > > Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse: > >> sounds cool. >>> In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world >>> with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners. >> >> > > |
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
tim Rowledge wrote:
> I feel the need to make a couple of points here:- > > a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a > good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to > spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good > place to look for answers to questions previously asked, for when a > user feels a little more confident and wants to do some research > themself. I'm not much of a fan of web-based forae because of the > fragmentation they seem to engender BUT they are an excellent > mechanism to provide an easily growable knowledge base of answers and > advice. A swiki should be at least as good but they do seem to get > horribly disorganised very quickly so perhaps using a web forum in the > style of www.osxfaq.com's would be useful. Some threads are open to > post questions and some are closed as a record of an answer that > should stand alone. > > more importantly we need *content*. I'd bet that almost every > plausible newcomer question has been asked and answered but we have no > sensible record. Searching a mailing list archive isn't really very > helpful, especially if the subject was contentious and generated more > heat than light. There are almost certainly hundreds of useful > tutorial snippets - some much more than snippets - lying around the > web. Surely an effective tactic would be to dig them all out, review > them for accuracy, contemporary relevance, completeness and quality > and then try to build a reasonably coherent body of guidance out of > them? We have started, what we call, an "Answer Board." It is nothing more than a moderated forum where people can ask specific questions. Those questions are answered by "experts." We understand that questions by beginners may not yield the answer the beginner has in mind -- the question may be vague, the beginner may not know how to ask the question, etc. So, a forum seemed to be a good way to "bat around" the question to ultimately arrive at a/the solution. (plus there are not 100 emails for a beginner to wade through.) The "answers" are then reformulated and stored on a wiki for reference later. A beginner can always go to the wiki first to search. The Wiki is managed by people that are responsible for organizing and managing the question/answer - but they are not necessarily the "experts." Let me reiterate Tim's urging that a Wiki *must* be maintained regularly. The squeak swiki is so outdated that it's very hard to use and I believe beginners will find it difficult and may, in the end, just give up. A well groomed, up-to-date Wiki is required to pull this off. We are at the beginning of this exercise, but it proves to be worthwhile. We might consider this approach or a derivative. Also, please count me in. I sure to learn a lot! brad |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg-3
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> "squeak-newbies" > > Can't get much more inviting than that, can it? Yeap let us go for it! Cees could you create such a mailing-list? Stef |
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
stephane ducasse wrote:
> Hi all > > I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters > because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really afraid to post, > experience with python mailing-list doing the same are a success so we > should learn. > > Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me answering the > questions > on this squeak-starters mailing-list. > > So if we are 4 or 5 we win! I don't consider myself a newbie as I've been playing with Squeak for years and have not been shy about displaying my ignorance on this list for all to see. :) I'm not sure we need a new list. But if we do keep this list as the one list for all, we do need to make the Subscription page better. It says at the top: """ This is the main Squeak developers' list, which isn't restricted to any particular Squeak topic. It is the newest incarnation of the list formerly known as [hidden email]. It has been given the more specific name "squeak-dev" to distinguish it from other Squeak lists that are emerging. """ I think that it hasn't been the [hidden email] for so long that we should drop that comment. It isn't meaningful to most people who subscribe today. In this section we should make it explicitly clear that the list is for everyone. Maybe something like: """ This mailing list is a general discussion list for Squeak. Squeak is a multi-faceted environment providing a variety of applications, a development environment and the Smalltalk programming language. This list is for those who are interested in any area of Squeak. Whether you are new to Squeak or are a long-time veteran, please feel free to participate in friendly, productive and sometimes excited discussion. Don't be shy, jump on in, were here to help. For more information about Squeak go to: http://www.squeak.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, view archives or for posting information see below. Enjoy! Squeak makes computing fun! """ Okay maybe I went overboard. :) But hey, hammer this out on the list and lets provide a better front to this mailing list. And then if it proves at some point to have a squeak-users (or somesuch) list, then we can do that. Jimmie |
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In reply to this post by Hans N Beck
Hi!
Hans N Beck <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi, > > why not simply squeak-help ? A few views: - squeak-help sounds nice and evidently a helpline. - we already have multiple lists but I too want such a list to "push" newbies back over to squeak-dev. I don't want us to split. :) - I gladly answer questions but can't take the time to track yet another list. So feel free to bump them on me in private when you think it has to do with SqueakMap and I will answer. regards, Göran |
Re: Looking for good souls
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Goran
for the list 3.9, squeak-dev, packages, and others I would prefer to kill some of the useless or not active mailing- list and push a low entry one. I have rules that just push them all in the same folder (but ordered) this way I use 3.9 to communicate with others on what we are doing and but I get a general overview so for me I'm not split over multiple mailing-list On 22 avr. 06, at 22:32, [hidden email] wrote: > Hi! > > Hans N Beck <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi, >> >> why not simply squeak-help ? > > A few views: > > - squeak-help sounds nice and evidently a helpline. > - we already have multiple lists but I too want such a list to "push" > newbies back over to squeak-dev. I don't want us to split. :) > - I gladly answer questions but can't take the time to track yet > another list. So feel free to bump them on me in private when you > think > it has to do with SqueakMap and I will answer. > > regards, Göran > |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Sebastián Sastre
>>>>> "Sebastián" == Sebastián Sastre <[hidden email]> writes:
Sebastián> Hey a Squeakipedia is not a bad idea. Sebastián> Anybody? How is that different from the current Wiki? -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 <[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/> Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training! |
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In reply to this post by Göran Krampe
Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it
were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, and any replies from squeak-dev to [help] subjects were copied to squeak-help. The dev list sees the help traffic, can provide assistance, and gain "non-expert" perspective on the state of Squeak. The help seekers are spared the "intimidating" traffic. The [help] tags provide a filter handle for those that want one. Possible? Desirable? ... Sean McGrath |
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In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
On 22-Apr-06, at 12:43 PM, Brad Fuller wrote: [snip my vague and waffley bits] > Let me offer some ideas. > > We have started, what we call, an "Answer Board." It is nothing more > than a moderated forum where people can ask specific questions. Those > questions are answered by "experts." We understand that questions by > beginners may not yield the answer the beginner has in mind -- the > question may be vague, the beginner may not know how to ask the > question, etc. So, a forum seemed to be a good way to "bat around" the > question to ultimately arrive at a/the solution. (plus there are > not 100 > emails for a beginner to wade through.) > > The "answers" are then reformulated and stored on a wiki for reference > later. A beginner can always go to the wiki first to search. The > Wiki is > managed by people that are responsible for organizing and managing the > question/answer - but they are not necessarily the "experts." > > Let me reiterate Tim's urging that a Wiki *must* be maintained > regularly. The squeak swiki is so outdated that it's very hard to use > and I believe beginners will find it difficult and may, in the end, > just > give up. A well groomed, up-to-date Wiki is required to pull this off. > > We are at the beginning of this exercise, but it proves to be > worthwhile. We might consider this approach or a derivative. An excellent way of putting exactly what I was trying to say. Discussion followed by synthesis followed by an ariticle. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim "Both.." said Pooh, as the guillotine came down |
Re: Looking for good souls
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>
> An excellent way of putting exactly what I was trying to say. > Discussion followed by synthesis followed by an ariticle. Indeed nice let us see what will happen (experience showed to me that talking was easier), but people can prove me that I'm wrong (which I would love). I think that we made progress in turning bugs in tests. |
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In reply to this post by Sean McGrath-2
Hello Sean,
SM> Suppose a squeak-help list exists and any posts to it SM> were copied to squeak-dev with [help] prefixed to the subject, SM> and any replies from squeak-dev to [help] subjects were copied to [newbie] or [beginner] like the list name i suggest. SM> squeak-help. The dev list sees the help traffic, can provide assistance, SM> and gain "non-expert" perspective on the state of Squeak. SM> The help seekers are spared the "intimidating" traffic. SM> The [help] tags provide a filter handle for those that want one. SM> Possible? Desirable? ... I think this is a really great idea! Take away the tags when relaying back to the beginner list. I hope someone with the knowledge will say that is easily done. Cheers, Herbert mailto:[hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
Hello Tim,
Saturday, April 22, 2006, 7:23:57 PM, you wrote: tR> I feel the need to make a couple of points here:- tR> a mailing list for newcomers and other learners to ask questions is a tR> good thing so long as enough people already knowledgeable and able to tR> spend time helping actually take part. A mailing list is not a good this for me is the most important part, as only people can tell you that a different question might be more helpful than the reply to the current question. tR> more importantly we need *content*. I'd bet that almost every tR> plausible newcomer question has been asked and answered but we have tR> no sensible record. Searching a mailing list archive isn't really Content is just too fixed and reflects a certain point of view. Questions often are implicitly about not knowing what to ask and IMHO content is not well equipped to deal with this kind of question. Searching content easily turns into frustration when the searching persons mind is locked and better organisation of the content is no help for this problem. It just needs people. tR> more important still, we need *commitment* to do this and keep it up Yes but we start and then everyone can see how far the commitment goes and hopefully the added commitment of people willing to help will be sufficient to get some more people into this community. tR> to date and answer questions and take the the answers and make them tR> into newer or better tutorials and articles. We need people that are tR> competent (or great!) teachers to actually decide to make the effort an interested pupil can make up for a lot of incompetence in a teacher if the teacher is willing. This is how squeak dev works :-)) Note the smiley! Cheers, Herbert mailto:[hidden email] |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
Sorry I'm late. May I add the WYSIWYG perspective: if what you type is
what you get, then - starters gets you appetizers - chat gets you gossip, rumors (only IRC gets you fun :) - users gets you to the most frustated group of people ever created by applied information technology (the so called MFGPECAIT's ;) - help promises help (suggested by Hans, O.K. for me) - answers gets you answers, my 2 pennies /Klaus On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 16:50:47 +0200, stéphane ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > Ok so let's find a good name. > > squeakers > squeak-starter > squeak-chat > squeak-users (i'm afraid that people think about using = etoy but why > not). > > I like the chat idea of the meeting on irc (that I usually miss). > > Stef > > On 22 avr. 06, at 15:39, Sebastián Sastre wrote: > >> Stef, >> >> I will help with what I can. Anyway I'll don't wait to be some kind >> of expert (by the way... wich nobody cant tell you when that happen) to >> give >> some help to users. I must say that I support this idea and I think is >> the >> rigt direction. >> >> I must say too that the list's name "squeak-starters mailing-list" >> is not going in this direction and what is worse is subtlelty teaching >> everybody that is not. I say this because it will keep allways the >> subscribers thinking in theirselves as starters (of something that >> should be >> "going" someday). I would agree with a name like "squeak-users" so it >> subtlelty teach that (in fact) *is* going. I think it will help us to >> help. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Sebastian >> >> >>> -----Mensaje original----- >>> De: [hidden email] >>> [mailto:[hidden email]] En >>> nombre de stephane ducasse >>> Enviado el: Sábado, 22 de Abril de 2006 04:00 >>> Para: The general-purpose Squeak developers list >>> Asunto: Looking for good souls >>> >>> Hi all >>> >>> I would like to have a list for newbies: squeak-starters >>> because (I see it now with my students) newbies are really >>> afraid to post, experience with python mailing-list doing the >>> same are a success so we should learn. >>> >>> Now I would like to have a couple of good souls to help me >>> answering the questions on this squeak-starters mailing-list. >>> >>> So if we are 4 or 5 we win! >>> >>> Stef >>> >> >> >> > > > |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
Hello,
I guess trying a new list for a bit different audience is ok. I'll subscribe and try to help there. I would imagine that the mailing list may not get too much traffic, as Squeak-announce was somewhat similar in a sense. (But we'll see.) I, too, think one list for all is ideal (I might agree though that some people can be intimidating on this list^^;). Don't forget about the Pygmalion Effect. People tend to act how they are supposed to act. If we have two lists, and one is labelled as the "friendlier" list, that could be interpreted as a message saying that another list is "unfriendly", and it is ok to act unfriendlier there. This is not what we want. I don't see it a problem that the same questions coming up to the list over and over again. Any question is the same, and human being is the best filter and the best mentor. If someone wants to ask a question, he should ask it, instead of looking for the right keyword to search the wiki database. Apart from the intimidation, the barrier to any mailing list is the burden to go through the registration process... Is it reasonable to set up the mailing list which is moderated by bunch of people over different timezone, and accept posts from non-members? -- Yoshiki |
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg-3
On Apr 22, 2006, at 9:41 PM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: > I actually still think the "one-list-for-all" is best, because even > if you don't understand half of what is discussed, you at least get > to know that more advanced topics exist. > > However, I can see how a newbie might be afraid of posting some > basic question to squeak-dev. So to get new folks to participate, > I'd make it explicit in the list name that it really is okay to ask > even the dumbest questions. How about > > "squeak-newbies" > > Can't get much more inviting than that, can it? I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering basic smalltalk questions. - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland? I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk. Cheers, Markus > > - Bert - > > Am 22.04.2006 um 20:49 schrieb Hans N Beck: > >> Hi, >> >> why not simply squeak-help ? >> >> Regards >> >> Hans >> >> Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse: >> >>> sounds cool. >>>> In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world >>>> with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners. >>> >>> >> >> > > > |
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