Looking for good souls
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Re: Looking for good souls
 
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I think that Squeakland mailing-list will not work.
I'm waiting to get the list created and we will see if this is working. Stef > >> I actually still think the "one-list-for-all" is best, because >> even if you don't understand half of what is discussed, you at >> least get to know that more advanced topics exist. >> >> However, I can see how a newbie might be afraid of posting some >> basic question to squeak-dev. So to get new folks to participate, >> I'd make it explicit in the list name that it really is okay to >> ask even the dumbest questions. How about >> >> "squeak-newbies" >> >> Can't get much more inviting than that, can it? > > I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of > lists, so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and > answering basic smalltalk questions. > - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland? > I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is > that it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk. > > Cheers, > > Markus > >> >> - Bert - >> >> Am 22.04.2006 um 20:49 schrieb Hans N Beck: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> why not simply squeak-help ? >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Hans >>> >>> Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse: >>> >>>> sounds cool. >>>>> In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world >>>>> with "beginner's mind", I like squeak-beginners. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3
On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same thing, not the same targeted audience). Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, asking for help, etc. For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly research ones) If Squeak-Smalltalk doesn't succeed in that it will *always* stay a platform for researchers/hackers. This is not bad obviously, it's just a question of choice. francois Cheers, |
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On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote: >> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, >> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering >> basic smalltalk questions. >> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland? >> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that >> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk. > > I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys > questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same > thing, not the same targeted audience). > > Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you > look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* > smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, > asking for help, etc. > > For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. > Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/ > hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/ > people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly > research ones) > Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these educational but still technical people in the french list - as there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland. So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course. I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and croquet. Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, and isn't that what squeakland is all about? Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on it either... Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find a bit strange ;-) Cheers, Markus |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Yoshiki Ohshima
Am 23.04.2006 um 10:43 schrieb Yoshiki Ohshima:
> Hello, > > I guess trying a new list for a bit different audience is ok. I'll > subscribe and try to help there. I would imagine that the mailing > list may not get too much traffic, as Squeak-announce was somewhat > similar in a sense. (But we'll see.) > > I, too, think one list for all is ideal (I might agree though that > some people can be intimidating on this list^^;). > > Don't forget about the Pygmalion Effect. People tend to act how > they are supposed to act. If we have two lists, and one is labelled > as the "friendlier" list, that could be interpreted as a message > saying that another list is "unfriendly", and it is ok to act > unfriendlier there. This is not what we want. Indeed - that's partly why I suggested "newbies" as list name. > I don't see it a problem that the same questions coming up to the > list over and over again. Any question is the same, and human being > is the best filter and the best mentor. If someone wants to ask a > question, he should ask it, instead of looking for the right keyword > to search the wiki database. > > Apart from the intimidation, the barrier to any mailing list is the > burden to go through the registration process... Is it reasonable to > set up the mailing list which is moderated by bunch of people over > different timezone, and accept posts from non-members? Good idea. But how do the non-subscribers get their answers? We could try to CC the non-subscribed thread participants. Or auto-subscribe any poster? Also very nice for newbies would be a mailing list <-> web forum gateway. I like the one at Nabble (http://www.nabble.com/Squeak- f14152.html), but it also requires creating an account ... - Bert - |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3
markus
I just thought that lot of people in squeakland are not really programmers at the low level, but more into using etoy. May be I'm wrong? Stef On 23 avr. 06, at 11:59, Markus Gaelli wrote: > > On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote: > >>> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, >>> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and >>> answering >>> basic smalltalk questions. >>> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland? >>> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that >>> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk. >> >> I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys >> questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same >> thing, not the same targeted audience). >> >> Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you >> look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* >> smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, >> asking for help, etc. >> >> For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. >> Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated >> research/hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/ >> teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps >> (not mainly research ones) >> > > Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these > educational but still technical people in the french list - as > there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, > Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland. > > So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all > this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning > platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - > as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course. > > I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more > subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and > croquet. > Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, > and isn't that what squeakland is all about? > > Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on > it either... > Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find > a bit strange ;-) > > Cheers, > > Markus > |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg-3
I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a list
squeak-newbies and if it does not work, it does not work. If you do not want to be in the other list, do not subscribe: simple! Sometimes simple stuff looks complex, but this is easier to talk than to try. Now I encourage everybody to have a look at our wiki and help because this is really not an cosy place. Stef >> Hello, >> >> I guess trying a new list for a bit different audience is ok. I'll >> subscribe and try to help there. I would imagine that the mailing >> list may not get too much traffic, as Squeak-announce was somewhat >> similar in a sense. (But we'll see.) >> >> I, too, think one list for all is ideal (I might agree though that >> some people can be intimidating on this list^^;). >> >> Don't forget about the Pygmalion Effect. People tend to act how >> they are supposed to act. If we have two lists, and one is labelled >> as the "friendlier" list, that could be interpreted as a message >> saying that another list is "unfriendly", and it is ok to act >> unfriendlier there. This is not what we want. > > Indeed - that's partly why I suggested "newbies" as list name. > >> I don't see it a problem that the same questions coming up to the >> list over and over again. Any question is the same, and human being >> is the best filter and the best mentor. If someone wants to ask a >> question, he should ask it, instead of looking for the right keyword >> to search the wiki database. >> >> Apart from the intimidation, the barrier to any mailing list is the >> burden to go through the registration process... Is it reasonable to >> set up the mailing list which is moderated by bunch of people over >> different timezone, and accept posts from non-members? > > Good idea. But how do the non-subscribers get their answers? We > could try to CC the non-subscribed thread participants. Or auto- > subscribe any poster? > > Also very nice for newbies would be a mailing list <-> web forum > gateway. I like the one at Nabble (http://www.nabble.com/Squeak- > f14152.html), but it also requires creating an account ... > > - Bert - > > |
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Hi Stef-- At 4:30am pacific time, you write: > I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a list > (squeak-newbies), and if it does not work, it does not work. This is a bit autocratic for my taste. I think this decision is more appropriately made by the board of directors. I particularly don't like it happening when I'm asleep and can't say anything about it. :) I know it takes more time to get multiple people to do something, but this kind of thing is why we even bother having a board. thanks, -C -- Craig Latta improvisational musical informaticist www.netjam.org Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] |
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I agree,
if there is such interest I think it's worthwhile to be *more democratic* regards, Sebastian > -----Mensaje original----- > De: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] En > nombre de Craig Latta > Enviado el: Domingo, 23 de Abril de 2006 14:09 > Para: [hidden email] > Asunto: re: mailing list creation > > > Hi Stef-- > > At 4:30am pacific time, you write: > > > I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a > list > (squeak-newbies), and if it does not work, it does not work. > > This is a bit autocratic for my taste. I think this > decision is more appropriately made by the board of > directors. I particularly don't like it happening when I'm > asleep and can't say anything about it. :) > > I know it takes more time to get multiple people to do > something, but this kind of thing is why we even bother > having a board. > > > thanks, > > -C > > -- > Craig Latta > improvisational musical informaticist > www.netjam.org > Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)] > > > |
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In reply to this post by ccrraaiigg
Craig Latta wrote:
> > Hi Stef-- > > At 4:30am pacific time, you write: > > > I would like to close this thread. I will try and set up a list > > (squeak-newbies), and if it does not work, it does not work. > > This is a bit autocratic for my taste. I think this decision is > more appropriately made by the board of directors. I particularly > don't like it happening when I'm asleep and can't say anything about > it. :) > > I know it takes more time to get multiple people to do something, > but this kind of thing is why we even bother having a board. > |
Re: [Squeakland] Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
Hi Stef,
The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image) currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This is correct. Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit for education of object oriented programmers nubs. Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not be part of the squeakland-image? Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which beams the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching environment? What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not so serious. I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of Squeak for and in education, and this would include both etoys and smalltalk. And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already lots of good souls there, who do focus on education. Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can learn a lot from the etoys paradigm. I also made the experience that people learn Smalltalk much faster, when they have been introduced to EToys first. Finally I have the feeling that the lack of technical questions/ discussions about Smalltalk on squeakland hindered the development of EToys. Cheers, Markus On Apr 23, 2006, at 1:24 PM, stéphane ducasse wrote: > markus > > I just thought that lot of people in squeakland are not really > programmers at the low level, > but more into using etoy. May be I'm wrong? > > Stef > > On 23 avr. 06, at 11:59, Markus Gaelli wrote: > >> >> On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote: >> >>>> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of >>>> lists, >>>> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and >>>> answering >>>> basic smalltalk questions. >>>> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland? >>>> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is >>>> that >>>> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk. >>> >>> I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys >>> questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same >>> thing, not the same targeted audience). >>> >>> Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you >>> look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* >>> smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, >>> asking for help, etc. >>> >>> For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. >>> Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated >>> research/hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/ >>> teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps >>> (not mainly research ones) >>> >> >> Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these >> educational but still technical people in the french list - as >> there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, >> Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland. >> >> So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all >> this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning >> platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - >> as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course. >> >> I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more >> subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and >> croquet. >> Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, >> and isn't that what squeakland is all about? >> >> Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on >> it either... >> Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find >> a bit strange ;-) >> >> Cheers, >> >> Markus >> > > _______________________________________________ > Squeakland mailing list > [hidden email] > http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland |
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In reply to this post by Markus Gälli-3
Hi Markus --
I don't think this would be a great idea. Squeakland is explicitly for teachers and parents (and they are very shy as it is). I think it would be very confusing to convolve discussions about Etoys with discussions about Squeak (especially since most of these users think Etoys is Squeak). Let's set up a separate list please. Cheers, Alan ----------- At 02:59 AM 4/23/2006, Markus Gaelli wrote: >On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote: > > >> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists, > >> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering > >> basic smalltalk questions. > >> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland? > >> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that > >> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk. > > > > I actually think it would be a bad idea to mix using etoys > > questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same > > thing, not the same targeted audience). > > > > Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you > > look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning* > > smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code, > > asking for help, etc. > > > > For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state. > > Apart from Squeakland (for etoys), Squeak is orientated research/ > > hackers which is OK but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/ > > people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly > > research ones) > > > >Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these >educational but still technical people in the french list - as there >are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, Bert, >Yoshiki and others in squeakland. > >So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all >this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning >platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe - >as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course. > >I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more >subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and >croquet. >Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, and >isn't that what squeakland is all about? > >Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on it >either... >Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find a >bit strange ;-) > >Cheers, > >Markus >_______________________________________________ >Squeakland mailing list >[hidden email] >http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
On 4/22/06, stéphane ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > "squeak-newbies" > > > > Can't get much more inviting than that, can it? > Personally, I would like to mimick patterns available in the open source community as much as possible. Which would be 'squeak-users'. Using Squeak as opposed to developing Squeak itself, which would then become the primary focus of the squeak-dev list. Two reasons against squeak-newbies: it smells of "Xxx for Dummies", which is denigrating, and it may prevent advanced *users* of Squeak from subscribing because they clearly are not a part of the indicated target group. Personally, I don't think there's a need for two lists. People with stupid questions will be flamed in either case (a stupid question does exist - it is when the poster clearly has not even done the most basic bit of research to solve the question by himself), and people with entry-level questions have never been flamed on squeak-dev, AFAICT. Summarizing my position: - I am weakly not in favor of splitting squeak-dev; - If that has to happen, I am strongly against calling it squeak-newbies. |
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On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:56:54 -0700, Cees De Groot <[hidden email]>
wrote: > Two reasons against squeak-newbies: it smells of "Xxx for Dummies", > which is denigrating, Title notwithstanding, the "...for Dummies" series was quite good (overall) and empathetic, rather than denigrating. The Unix one is classic. If there were a "Squeak for Dummies", I'd buy it. If I could convince Wiley to publish one, I'd write it.<S> > Personally, I don't think there's a need for two lists. People with > stupid questions will be flamed in either case (a stupid question does > exist - it is when the poster clearly has not even done the most basic > bit of research to solve the question by himself), and people with > entry-level questions have never been flamed on squeak-dev, AFAICT. I agree. But if it's true that people are reticent to post here, it wouldn't seem to be a terrible burden to start a new one. |
Re: Looking for good souls
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In reply to this post by Cees De Groot
Cees De Groot a écrit :
> Summarizing my position: > - I am weakly not in favor of splitting squeak-dev; As far as I can understand the Stephane proposal; the idea is more about attracting new users in a mailing list where this people could fell more confortable than splitting the list. When you start to learn Squeak and Smalltalk, the squeak-dev looks very impressive, even if the level of kindless is very very good in this list. Hilaire |
Re: Looking for good souls
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Hi guys
You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your knowledge. Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not invite anybody to learn and grow? Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really? May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to try instead of staying with your certainty about life and facts. My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to people that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day to communicate with us. These are years that because of technological aspects we did not create such a list. Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via squeakfondation as a normal and public list as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in our cool community, or I create a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let you decide. But I will do it (you know me and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it fails but at least I could be looking at this scar and be proud of it). > > Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make > several lists, for different languages. > > As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against > splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must > split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When > the people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to > grow the community, the lists must split. > > Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and > advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the > others won't. > > -Ralph Stef |
Re: Looking for good souls
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as a matter of facts....
Begin forwarded message: > From: "Manindra Sarkar" <[hidden email]> > Date: 24 avril 2006 11:09:22 HAEC > To: <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: Smalltalk books > > Stephane, > > Thanks for your tip. I did join the Squeak discussiongroup but it > seems its a very big and noisy group. > no doubt experts are among the members. i'm not practically able to > read all the threads. > > could u suggest me a group thats smaller also i would like to know > if there is a SmallTalk group which releases a monthly or > fortnightly newsletter? > > Thanks for being forthcoming. > > Regards, > Mani > >>>> stéphane ducasse <[hidden email]> 11-4-2006 17:02 >>> > :) > I like Smalltalk by example. > but it is a bit dense. > > You have the book of bernard Horan that his good. > But what I suggest you is to register to a mailing-list for example > the one of Squeak (www.squeak.org) > and to ask questions. Really the people are nice and they will always > help you. > > Stef > On 11 avr. 06, at 09:27, Manindra Sarkar wrote: > >> Hallo Stephane, >> >> I found your site via Wikipedia, and happy to know a good amount of >> books are available digitally. >> >> Could you suggest me a few books from this list, keeping in mind >> the order of difficulty? Im a SmallTalk newbie. Its been a week >> since im exposed to SmallTalk. >> >> Hope to hear from you. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Regards, >> Manindra Sarkar >> >> > > > > |
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In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
On Mon, Apr 24, 2006 at 10:34:08AM +0200, st?phane ducasse wrote:
> Hi guys > > You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your > knowledge. > Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not > invite anybody to learn and grow? > Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really? > > May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to > try instead of staying with your > certainty about life and facts. > > My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to > people > that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day > to communicate with us. > These are years that because of technological aspects we did not > create such a list. > > > Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via > squeakfondation as a normal and public list > as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in > our cool community, or I create > a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let > you decide. But I will do it (you know me > and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it > fails but at least I could be looking at this scar > and be proud of it). I have been monitoring this thread with some interest because I could see the need for all users to be able to ask questions about squeak that would not fit in with the discussions on the squeak-dev mailing list. After reading this thread I believe the answer may be to create a squeak newsgroup. This would have several advangtages: 1. All users can ask their questions there without fear or favour. 2. The experienced Squeakers could monitor the list and try to help when they feel able. 3. This would prevent an extra load on, and some separation from the squeak-dev mailing list. 4. Discussions of a particular topic will be threaded and thus easier to follow. I agree with Stephane that something like this should be instigated and is very necessary for people to adopt squeak and try to use this marvellous environment. John |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
Hi!
I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will do harm to anybody. It is absolutely true, that some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to squeak newbies and scare them away from writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new list, then it can be deleted anyway, so what is the problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, then well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to this list and place a vote wheter you would like a squeak-newbie list or not. You can count me in of course ;-) Elod > Hi guys > > You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your > knowledge. > Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not > invite anybody to learn and grow? > Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really? > > May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to > try instead of staying with your > certainty about life and facts. > > My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to > people > that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day > to communicate with us. > These are years that because of technological aspects we did not > create such a list. > > > Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via > squeakfondation as a normal and public list > as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in > our cool community, or I create > a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let > you decide. But I will do it (you know me > and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it > fails but at least I could be looking at this scar > and be proud of it). > >> >> Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make >> several lists, for different languages. >> >> As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against >> splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must >> split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the >> people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow >> the community, the lists must split. >> >> Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and >> advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the >> others won't. >> >> -Ralph > > > Stef > > |
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I also think a new mailing list for newcomers would be a good idea.
Cheers, Alan At 03:49 AM 4/24/2006, Elod Kironsky wrote: >Hi! > >I really agree with Stef and don't think a new mailing-list will do harm >to anybody. It is absolutely true, that >some advanced topics on squeak-dev may be very frustrating to squeak >newbies and scare them away from >writing to the conference. If there will be no posts to the new list, then >it can be deleted anyway, so what is the >problem? If someone thinks this behavior of Stefs is autocratic, then >well, let the newbies decide. Anyone, who >feels to be a newbie and is reading this mail, please write to this list >and place a vote wheter you would like a >squeak-newbie list or not. You can count me in of course ;-) > >Elod > >>Hi guys >> >>You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your >>knowledge. >>Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not >>invite anybody to learn and grow? >>Because you think that people are not afraid of our discussions? Really? >> >>May be this starter mailing-list will fail but I will have dare to >>try instead of staying with your >>certainty about life and facts. >> >>My GOAL IS NOT TO SPLIT SQUEAK_DEV. My goal is to give a chance to >>people >>that are afraid or do not want to receive sometimes 50 emails per day >>to communicate with us. >>These are years that because of technological aspects we did not >>create such a list. >> >> >>Here is what ralph told me, so either we do it publicly via >>squeakfondation as a normal and public list >>as the fact that we acknowledge that newcomers are ***welcome*** in >>our cool community, or I create >>a mailing in an obscure mail server and I will advertize it. I let >>you decide. But I will do it (you know me >>and I will fail and take the responsibility of this failure if it >>fails but at least I could be looking at this scar >>and be proud of it). >> >>> >>>Just make a list and then advertise it. In fact, you might make >>>several lists, for different languages. >>> >>>As long as I've been on the Squeak list, people have argued against >>>splitting the list. However, if Squeak is to grow, the list must >>>split. When a list gets large, people don't want to post. When the >>>people who post are experts, beginners get shy. If you want to grow >>>the community, the lists must split. >>> >>>Fortunately, you don't need to take a vote. Just create a list and >>>advertise it, and the people who want to join will join, and the >>>others won't. >>> >>>-Ralph >> >> >>Stef >> > |
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In reply to this post by stéphane ducasse-2
Hi Stef and the rest!
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?st=E9phane_ducasse?= <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi guys > > You know what? I found you really conservative and sitting on your > knowledge. > Do you really want to stay in your private club, be dandy, do not > invite anybody to learn and grow? Ehm, I am sorry - I haven't followed the thread in detail, but is someone really arguing strongly against? Then I probably missed it. Some people including myself just tried to mention the fact that we don't want squeak-dev to turn into an elitist dev-list, but I don't think anyone *really* argued against a users-list (or whatever it is called)? So get on with it and create the list, or tell Marcus to do it (I think he is list master) - you are on the board you know. :) regards, Göran |
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